Is the stay-at-home mother model so bad?

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Many jobs may involve mindless tedious work, but how many are unpaid?
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If your kids won't pay you for your time by the hour then turning your cynical argument around ask: "How much will it cost me to have someone (who doesn't give a genuine crap about my kids) to look after them for me?" That's how much you are being paid, at least financially.
 
What happens later?

"Most (though not all) of the many working mums of my acquaintance would kill for the chance to give up work and stay at home with the little ones. Life for working mums seems to be balanced very finely, with just one minor drama, like a sick child or a car problem being enough to topple it over into chaos. "

My experience is the opposite in that many of the stay at home mothers bitterly regret giving up work when their children start secondary school and they are no longer employable as their skill set has become obsolete and the kids have their own lives. It is especially miserable for those that have no income to send their children on the "optional" school trips sking or to the Gaeltacht.

Working mother of 3
 
I think many working people should take a look at why they are both going to work each day and do their sums and see if it all adds up and whether it is worth it or not or is there another alternative. Do they work to live or do they live to work.

Take a couple in Dublin with of two young children. The creches costs say E180 pw each. The couple have to pay E360 out of their after tax income in order to have the children looked after (in what is in effect a baby farm). This means that they have to earn over E700 pw gross to pay for this (assuming tax @ 42% and PRSI @ 8%). (700 x 50 = E35,000 pa)

On a normal working day Mother gets up very early in the morning to shower and dress for work and get the kids dressed and ready for the creche, leaves home and drops the kids off to the creche (possibly accompanied by the Sp).

She then heads off to work, cursing the traffic jams (Sandyford Industrial Est, Mad Cow Roundabout, ...backed up as far as Finglas, ...at a standstill on the Quays etc) all the way into work where she is expected to do a full days work regardless of her domestic situtation. In the evening, after a hectic days work, she rushes back to the Creche, cursing the same traffic jams which are now in the opposite direction and she is totally stressed out trying to get to the creche before it closes.

By the time she gets home she is too tired and stressed to talk or to play with the children and they are soon packed off to bed because they are also exausted, having been up at cock crow to get ready for the creche.

Is it any wonder that we as a nation are taking anti depressants as if they were going out of fashion?

It also costs money to go work. There are coffee breaks, the weekly collection for x that is leaving or getting married, the socialising, additional travel i.e. busfares, car parking, going out to lunch, buying work clothes, the Christmas party that you don't really want to attend etc. etc.

Would this woman not be much better off and have a far higher quality of life for herself and her children if she stayed at home, got up later, spent time with her children. Her tax free allowances would be transferred to her Sp.

She could also possibly look at taking in a neighbours child. (E150 pw tax free pw is 150 x 50 = E7500. This is equivalent to E15,000 pa if the income were taxable). There will of course be extra expenses associated with staying at home ie additional heating and ESB.

(Just my opinion for what it's worth and I'd jump at the chance but the boss insists that she stays at home and I go to work).



Murt
 
E150 pw tax free pw is 150 x 50 = E7500. This is equivalent to E15,000 pa if the income were taxable
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Slightly off-topic, but why would it not be taxable?

Summer - I have to confess that most of my discussions on this topic have been with younger mums, so the issue regarding secondary school would not have arisen yet. It does sound a little bit like wanting to 'have their cake & eat it', mind you. It's not reasonable to expect to step back into a career as if nothing has happened after a 10-12 year absence.
 
I understood that the second spouse could earn up to €8000 euro p.a. tax free. A quick search of the revenue site didn't reveal anything though. I think this was one of the measures brought in after the brohaha when individualisation was introduced.

People often leave the impact on potential future incomes out of the equation when working out what to do. Surely the people that you refer to Summer could retrain or go in a new direction.

Nogser
 
Forward Planning

Most working mothers accept that their salaries will be very low while the children are in creche but will reap the rewards later i.e. pension fund, career salary as opposed to opting out of the workforce and starting all over again perhaps on a minimum wage. It is not that easy to re-train or go in a new direction, when you are in your mid to late forties the opportunities are not available. In my experience there are many lonely women, whose children are no longer dependant on them and would love the chance to return to work, not just for monetary gain (although this is important) but to use their mind, socialise and get out of the house.
 
..

"when you are in your mid to late forties the opportunities are not available"

Now I know I'm really old :D

"In my experience there are many lonely women, whose children are no longer dependant on them and would love the chance to return to work, not just for monetary gain (although this is important) but to use their mind, socialise and get out of the house"

( The following is a question rather than some sort of short smart remark )

Why dont they if they want to ?

- Is it some form of pressure from within the family ? ( have to show they dont need to send the lady of the house out to work to make ends meet )

- Is it fear of the unknown in some way - shouldnt be - people who have raised children will by in large have a lot more cop on than the typical school leaver

- Is it not wanting to break the routine of home - clearing up breakfast, looking after the dog & that sort of thing that is no bother provided that you dont have to disappear at 7:30 am only to return at 7:30 pm

- Other things .....

I know that around Dublin the CDVEC run day time courses in a range of subjects including

Various forms of computer use
languages
media


A large proportion of the students attending are indeed Very Mature. Some of the students would have been made redundant others would be doing it 'just to get out of the house & socialise'

At any rate such courses are a great first step in the direction of rejoining the work force ( IIRC the course costs are very reasonable )

O t H
 
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Most working mothers accept that their salaries will be very low while the children are in creche but will reap the rewards later i.e. pension fund, career salary as opposed to opting out of the workforce and starting all over again perhaps on a minimum wage.
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Minimum wage? A little bit melodramatic don't you think?

Anyway, I doubt your argument of mothers working, 'not for the money, nope, for the pension dontcha know?', holds much water in reality. I think women quitting work when they have babies is becoming as unusual as women continuing work after they got married 40 years ago. Once a social trend picks up sufficient momentum people just follow it.

Feminism assisted by consumerism brought about the sea change. And it's made the choice between working or rearing harder. A shame in my opinion as I think future generations will reflect the change purely to the negative.

BTW, I am a man and I have every right to have an opinion on the subject before you ask.
 
Forward Planning

"Feminism assisted by consumerism brought about the sea change. And it's made the choice between working or rearing harder. A shame in my opinion as I think future generations will reflect the change purely to the negative. "
In the late seventies the law was changed to allow married women return to work and many decided to do so. As for the choice to stay at home or go to work, who knows with creche fees at €180 per child per week and homes in the urban areas costing €250,000+ young couples are in a catch 22 position.
As a matter of interest if you opted out of the workforce for 10 or 15 years would you expect to re-enter at your current salary and would your skills be still in demand?
 
Can we have it all?

As an Old Stay at Home Mum (early to mid forties!!) I would just like to add my tuppence worth to this topic.

I had a really good job. I loved it and it paid really well. We had two boys and between school, childminders and nurseries I managed to keep them happy while I went out to work. I didn't see them much during the week but at the weekends we did lots together. We also went on really nice family holidays. I had my career and my family so I 'had it all'.

Then I became pregnant again. We (husband and I) sat down and discussed our lifestyle. We lived in a nice house in a lovely area, kids went to a good school, childminder was great but it was in England. We always thought we'd come 'home' so we decided that this new baby was the time to do it. With the kids having to adjust to moving, along with the fact I had a new baby we decided that I would stop working (for a few months) until we got sorted.

That was 6 years ago. It was only when I stopped 'having it all' that I realised I was actually 'missing it all'. It wasn't so much the new baby who needed me but the other two really appreciated the fact that I was there for them when they came in from school. Since then the oldest has left home and the middle one will be starting secondary school soon. I realise that I have probably 'ruined my chances' of getting back on the career ladder but it's a chance we decided to take.

I'm not saying it's easy. It's very hard to stay at home. The boredom of the same repetitive tasks every day can be overwhelming at times. However, I am trying to keep my brain alive (doing a degree via distance learning) and have managed to build up a network of friends. Hopefully, when my kids don't need me anymore I can rejoin the workforce (and give my poor overworked husband a break). If it's a minimum wage job then so be it. Someone will be getting a bargain.

Sorry about the post being so long. At the end of the day it should be about choice. I only realised I was getting old when I saw the post about 'women in their forties' regretting their decision. Maybe I'll regret mine but I reckon I'd regret missing out on their childhood more.
 
Re: Can we have it all?

My mother stopped working when I was born (first of five) and without a doubt me and my siblings benefited form having her around all the time.
Around 2 years ago she decided to return to the workforce after an absence of nearly 30 years and guess what
a) because the mortgage was virtually paid off she was able to look for work in areas that interested her rather than focusing on what paid the most.
b) she found that there are several areas of employment for her generation in which school leavers wouldn't be considered (although they probably wouldn't want to work in these areas any way).
c) employment areas like the one she's now in tend to have staff who look out for each other rather than backbite in order to get ahead so she gets on really well with her co-workers
d) she's getting paid pretty well which, when you take into account the fact that there's no mortgage, increases her disposable income even more.
So with regards to sahm's whose kids have left secondary school/college most of the time their outgoings will have decreased to the extent that as with my mother they can choose work based on what they want to do rather than trying to re-establish a career.
So you get to be part of your kids daily existence as they grow up and you can then look for a job you like when they're around 20, I don't think I'll have that choice/opportunity in 18 years time and I certainly don't get to spend as much time with my kids as I'd like (and I get to spend far more than the average 9-5 worker).
 
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with creche fees at €180 per child per week and homes in the urban areas costing €250,000+ young couples are in a catch 22 position.
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Indeed, but the market finds its own level. There's a good reason for economists comparing apples (single income families) with oranges (double income families) when discussing historical versus current house affordability. Running to stand still so to speak.
 
Re: .

Indeed, but the market finds its own level
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Normal market economy rules don't apply to the housing market, given the restrictions on the supply side (planning) and the various Govt interferences in the market (mortgage interest relief etc).
 
Re: .

So far this debate has opened my eyes. Have to admit that before I read some of the posts I too would probably have looked down on the choice of some women to give up their careers to stay at home and mind kids.

Now I can see that to some it makes more sense and is a decision that deserves respect. However, the topic has also "confirmed" my own decision never to have kids and to concentrate on my career. Have done pretty well for myself so far and the thought of giving it up just makes me feel ill. If my partner was willing to give up his career to mind kids then I might consider it but it's not something I would ever ask him to do.

I know that I'm not very fond of children anyway and have no intention of ever changing a nappy but that comes down to the individual.

My own mother stayed at home until the youngest of us was in secondary school. Don't know if that's had any influence on my choice.
 
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I know that I'm not very fond of children anyway and have no intention of ever changing a nappy
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:rollin

Wait til you have one of your own!
 
Fathers

I know this is slightly off topic but what about the Da? The debate about the 'have-it-all, do-it-all' career woman seems to have completely ignored the role fathers can play in bringing up their kids.

Our (?! well, my) generation do not in general have role models that equip us the the expectations and infrastructure to deal with the lifestyles we lead today esp wrt combing marriage and parenthood with careers. Our mothers were for the most part SAHM while our fathers trotted off to work to bring home the pay cheque without the burden of having to squeeze homemaking and child rearing in his after-hours time as mother had that under control.

This was a great little model except it was a pisser for women who had kids whose career choices were limited to SAHM, SAHM or SAHM. Hence the frustration of women (like my mother) who found themselves trapped at home with squealling kids and housework and no adult company without much say in the matter (if they wanted to have kids).

Today we have choices (YAY!) except instead of rewriting both original role models, both men and women have adopted the old-fashioned father model, i.e. both off at work bringing home a pay cheque. Except that we've forgotten that somebody has to look after the homemaking and parenting, that its not so easy to squeeze this previously full-time SAHM role into your spare time.

I think that its been easier for women to recognise the lack of relevant role models as our lifestyles and choices are generally radically different to those of our mothers and grandmothers. However I think men (cue sweeping generalisation!! This is just based on my own observations.) are still following their fathers and grandfathers role models (either consciously or subconsciously). With the best will in the world on the part of both men and women to fulfill the ideals of feminism (which in its true sense is the belief in equal rights for both sexes) statistics and studies continue to show that women continue to bear the lion's (or should that be lioness') share of the homemaking and childrearing responsibilities. In my more cynical moments I think that men of course have no incentive to change their role model - its much easier to come back from a long day at the office to a clean house and a delicious dinner and to bounce their kiddies on their knee for a few minutes quality fun before settling back with the newspaper by the fire. Somehow the house gets cleaned and the dinners get cooked and the kids get reared but that's not part of their gig ...

Have we not got the imagination to come up with a fresh model that can address the needs and desires of both sexes? Easier said than done I suppose ... yada yada yada!
 
Re: Fathers

I agree with you to a certain exten Coolabola. There is a model but it is hard to implement. I think it was called the 4/3 or four thirds model. In thi model each parent works a 2/3 of a normal job. They have sole responsibilty for children for the other 1/3 and the children go for extra family childcare for 1/3. The idea is that both parents can have fufilling family and work roles. As I said it is a bit idealistic. The parental leave has been a great benifit for families allowing breathing space. I know a good number of people who have gone permanent part time after trying out the parental leave. I know one family where the father has taken over working half time when the mothers parental leave was used up.

Nogser
 
Re: mans role model!

come back from a long day at the office to a clean house and a delicious dinner and to bounce their kiddies on their knee for a few minutes quality fun before settling back with the newspaper by the fire. Somehow the house gets cleaned and the dinners get cooked and the kids get reared but that's not part of their gig ...
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I accept that this is your personal experience you're basing this on but if this is what happens in your house I think there's something wrong. In fact I don't know any men whose lives fit this description.
Personally its get up in the morning, get myself ready, prepare kids breakfast, leave house at 7:25am get home at 6:30pm, help with dinner preparation, clear up after dinner, play with kids, help with homework, do some housework, get kids ready for bed, prepare school lunches for the next day and finally get to do some uninterrupted tv watching 9-10:30pm.
Don't get me wrong on this, as far as I'm concerned I'm only pulling my weight and don't feel I do much more than my contempories.

p.s. In case this reads otherwise, I actually enjoy taking part in my families life and base my role model on my father, if it was good enough for him...
 
Re: mans role model!

Hi icantbelieve!

Point taken. My description was more than a little exagerated I suppose and its based on my observations of older generations of men and, consequently it seems to come as a shock to younger men that this model cannot exist today if you have a working wife/partner.

Its more of a culture shock for younger men, who are brought up in many cases by (Stay-at-home-)Mammys that do everything for them and haven't expected them to contribute to the homemaking, when they shack up with a woman isn't prepared to/able to keep house for them as well as going out to work herself. I've seen it still happen today (and yep, I know there are Domestic Gods like yourself (do you offer training courses for your fellow men??? :) ) out there but you're the wonderful exception to the rule. And I know that there are female Domestic Dunces too who have been over-Mammied too. But they tend to be the exceptions too ... Girls do tend to be expected to look after themselves more as kids and teenagers than fellas in my experience, a hangover from the sexist stereotypes of previous genrerations)
 
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Normal market economy rules don't apply to the housing market
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Yes they do, they are just biased. If nobody had any money prices would fall. There has to be a continuous behaviour between this and reality.
 
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