Is it Paddy's turn to be an idiot?

[cremeegg]

I have said previously, SF has some decent politicians but they can't cope with questions about the past.

Mary Lou couldn't even say that Gerry Adams should apologise for saying exactly the same thing that Conor Murphy said.

I have been googling the Paul Quinn case.

That a young man was horrifically murdered is the central issue.

The current political debate seems to centre around what Conor Murphy said in 2007. It would appear that Bertie Ahern said much the same, and indicated that he did so based on a garda briefing. Shortly afterwards Bertie withdrew his remarks and apologised.

What is never said but is insinuated by many commentators is that SF or the IRA were responsible for Paul Quinn's murder.

The International Monitoring Commissions report said; that the IRA was not responsible for the murder of Paul Quinn, that the killing was ”clearly contrary to the instructions and strategy of the IRA leadership”, that some members of the IRA may have been involved. (bold print is my own).

The other current stick being used to beat SF is that they don't support the Special Criminal Court. Neither do the Greens, or not until yesterday anyway.

Why do FF/FG not come out and say that they won't go into government with SF because SF was he political wing of the IRA and they want nothing to do with that.

That at least would be honest, but it seems to me that they haven't the courage to do this because if people voted for SF anyway that would leave FF FG exposed.

Not voting SF because they were the IRAs political wing is a perfectly valid position. Voting for SF because they were the IRAs political wing is a perfectly valid position. Voting for or not voting for SF without regards to their IRA history is a perfectly valid position.

Dragging up the non scandal of Paul Quinn (his murder was a scandal, but that's not what's being dragged up) is a shameful straw man argument. The IT, RTE, FF, FG and Eoghan Harris obviously think they have nothing better to put before the electorate.

 

[Firefly]

Quinn was an election issue for me for the past 13 years. So was the Robert McCartney murder with 50 SF members in the toilet when it happened. When I ask SF candidates about these cases, I get told it is nothing to do with them and it was cowardly and people with information should come forward

Genuinely, I would be afraid of asking SF candidates those questions, especially if they came knocking on my door as they would know where I lived. It tells me all I need to know about voting for them.

Being far left is bad enough, but this is an entirely different prospect. Can you imagine Ireland after say 8 years with SF in power?

 

[Sunny]

Sorry but there is a huge difference in what Bertie said about the murder and what murphy said directly about Quinn. Bertie also retracted what was said inside and outside the house when asked. 13 years, the family of Paul Quinn have waited for Murphy to withdraw the remarks. 13 years of him not only not retracting it but denying saying it. A lie that the SF leader repeated on national television until the actual quote was read out to her and damage limitation was entered into. Even now they wont confirm that Murphy has given the names of the IRA members that he spoke to and denied the crime to the authorities.

As for the actual crime itself, nobody is any doubt that members of the local IRA carried out the murder. Nobody. As for whether the murder was officially sanctioned by the IRA leadership of not, I couldn't give a damn. They are still protecting the killers of that boy 13 years later. Same with the murder of Robert McCartney. When Guards are killed during a bank robbery, it is always a rogue element but we have a situation where a sitting SF TD goes to meet them out of prison like conquering heroes.

As the central criminal court, I dont agree with the green party. Smacks of liberalism for the sake of liberalism. But at least I cant doubt their motives unless they have a history of their members being convicted by the same court.

Also nobody dragged up the Paul Quinn murder. It was brought up because a grieving mother was brave enough to do an interview. Did she use the election? Yes. Do you blame her? Are you saying it was shameful that she did the interview and dragged it all up again? She shouldn't have had to do the interview. SF should have had to answer these questions weeks ago. The murder and the on going cover up is a scandal to her and it is a scandal to me.

We have pussy footed around the issues of SF for long enough. They need to answer the questions being asked. Judging by the performance of mary Lou in the past few days, there is little doubt that she ie answerable to more than the members of her party.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I have been googling the Paul Quinn case.

That a young man was horrifically murdered is the central issue.

The current political debate seems to centre around what Conor Murphy said in 2007. It would appear that Bertie Ahern said much the same, and indicated that he did so based on a garda briefing. Shortly afterwards Bertie withdrew his remarks and apologised.

What is never said but is insinuated by many commentators is that SF or the IRA were responsible for Paul Quinn's murder.

The International Monitoring Commissions report said; that the IRA was not responsible for the murder of Paul Quinn, that the killing was ”clearly contrary to the instructions and strategy of the IRA leadership”, that some members of the IRA may have been involved. (bold print is my own).

The other current stick being used to beat SF is that they don't support the Special Criminal Court. Neither do the Greens, or not until yesterday anyway.

Why do FF/FG not come out and say that they won't go into government with SF because SF was he political wing of the IRA and they want nothing to do with that.

That at least would be honest, but it seems to me that they haven't the courage to do this because if people voted for SF anyway that would leave FF FG exposed.

Not voting SF because they were the IRAs political wing is a perfectly valid position. Voting for SF because they were the IRAs political wing is a perfectly valid position. Voting for or not voting for SF without regards to their IRA history is a perfectly valid position.

Dragging up the non scandal of Paul Quinn (his murder was a scandal, but that's not what's being dragged up) is a shameful straw man argument. The IT, RTE, FF, FG and Eoghan Harris obviously think they have nothing better to put before the electorate.

creme some interesting points their ( ) esp re IMC report. I also think the exploitation of the issue looks a tad opportunist. But the question remains why did SF make the statement at all about PQ being a criminal if it were not to justify to themselves and their supporters the brutal murder?

On a separate tack, I really think the FOT line that it is "dangerous" to exclude SF from government is a nonsense, yep that's what he said. For many, many people SF/IRA are totally toxic. It is perfectly legitimate for folk to require their chosen party to refuse to facilitate bringing SF/IRA into government. Maybe either FF or FG will make that mistake. It would be the end of them. More than half their supporters would never forgive them. I myself have voted for both Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum in the past. The first to make that mistake will never again be on my ballot paper.

 

[cremeegg]

But the question remains why did SF make the statement at all about PQ being a criminal if it were not to justify to themselves and their supporters the brutal murder?

Its surprising how different people can look at one thing and see it differently.

While obviously I don't know why SF said that PQ was a criminal, I had assumed that it was not to justify his killing but to signal that it had nothing to do with them.

Not "we killed him because he was a criminal" rather "he was a criminal killed by other criminals nothing to do with us"

Of course it could also be that SF believed it to be true. Bertie Ahern said the Gardaí told him that was being briefed by the PSNI.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Its surprising how different people can look at one thing and see it differently.

While obviously I don't know why SF said that PQ was a criminal, I had assumed that it was not to justify his killing but to signal that it had nothing to do with them.

Hmm! You may be right, in fact I think you are. In which case SF/IRA are totally innocent here and it is all a contrived dirty trick by the "establishment". Anyway, in my view even dirty tricks are justified against that lot, unless they backfire.

 

[blueband]

creme some interesting points their ( ) esp re IMC report. I also think the exploitation of the issue looks a tad opportunist. But the question remains why did SF make the statement at all about PQ being a criminal if it were not to justify to themselves and their supporters the brutal murder?

On a separate tack, I really think the FOT line that it is "dangerous" to exclude SF from government is a nonsense, yep that's what he said. For many, many people SF/IRA are totally toxic. It is perfectly legitimate for folk to require their chosen party to refuse to facilitate bringing SF/IRA into government. Maybe either FF or FG will make that mistake. It would be the end of them. More than half their supporters would never forgive them. I myself have voted for both Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum in the past. The first to make that mistake will never again be on my ballot paper.

that day is coming sooner or later as they will have no choice, my guess is sooner...

 

[cremeegg]

Hmm! You may be right, in fact I think you are. In which case SF/IRA are totally innocent here and it is all a contrived dirty trick by the "establishment". Anyway, in my view even dirty tricks are justified against that lot, unless they backfire.

I have no idea how to respond to this. Touché

 

[josh8267]

creme some interesting points their ( ) esp re IMC report. I also think the exploitation of the issue looks a tad opportunist. But the question remains why did SF make the statement at all about PQ being a criminal if it were not to justify to themselves and their supporters the brutal murder?

The first to make that mistake will never again be on my ballot paper.

They will be on your ballot paper Duke will not be voting for them,

 

[Delboy]

Its surprising how different people can look at one thing and see it differently.

While obviously I don't know why SF said that PQ was a criminal, I had assumed that it was not to justify his killing but to signal that it had nothing to do with them.

Not "we killed him because he was a criminal" rather "he was a criminal killed by other criminals nothing to do with us"

Of course it could also be that SF believed it to be true. Bertie Ahern said the Gardaí told him that was being briefed by the PSNI.

Do you believe that a murder like that, in Sth Armagh, had absolutely nothing to do with people affiliated with Sinn Fein? Do you honestly believe that?

 

[cremeegg]

Do you believe that a murder like that, in Sth Armagh, had absolutely nothing to do with people affiliated with Sinn Fein? Do you honestly believe that?

I suggested above that people some times see the same event differently.

This can arise from a different view of the world but in this case it’s just because you didn’t read my post

 

[WolfeTone]

The new low has to be Paul Quinn debacle - all politicians can be dodgy sometimes - but these guys are really off the scale ugly.]

Its not a new low, it is actually the standard.
After 25yrs of conflict the opportunity to bring reconciliation is being squandered with regards to people in high office failing in their duties to bring truth, justice and closure for the families of the victims.

That said, the Quinn murder should not be looked at in a vacuum.
The reality is that people in high office on all sides are actively failing in their duties to bring truth, justice and closure to families of victims.
Just this week, a High Court judge in Belfast said it was appalling that the documents relating to the slaughter of Miami Showband not being released was appalling

Appalling

Add to that the litany of slaughters - Sean Graham bookies, Greysteel, Loughinisland etc...etc... where there is a clear and evident path of cover-up and collusion by the authorities in law and order.

It doesn't make for much political point scoring down here, because the partitionist parties can remain at arms length by opting out of the political quagmire that is NI affairs. Until that is, when it suits them to use those affairs, cherry-picking their fake outrage.

 

[josh8267]

The people who pay the most in are the least likely to need it. As Sunny said, it's called Social Insurance. Do you think it should work differently?

Main reason it was set up was to avoid a large drop in income Between time employees lost one job and got re employed again or on company lay off,
Of course it should full Title is pay related social insurance, and it did work well , until it was Butchered by FF/FG so it could be squandered and Depleted and used as a bribe ,

 

[josh8267]

In recent years, we have watched aghast & bemused as the Brits voted for Brexit & Boris and the Yanks for Trump. Is it now Paddy's turn to be an idiot and allow the Sinners to get their filthy hands on the tiller? [The new low has to be Paul Quinn debacle - all politicians can be dodgy sometimes - but these guys are really off the scale ugly.]

The Brits watched aghast and bemused as paddy thought he was rich before he found out the money belonged to German Pensioners not the paddies,
Unfairness is driving people away from FF/FG Irish people resisting reform will be picking up the bill next time,
The next bail out will be mortgaged against Irish held Wealth,
I think someone posted Ireland is the 4th richest in the OECD, so we should be bailing out ourselves next time,

 

[WolfeTone]

Important article by Dan O'Brien in today's Indo. Anyone even contemplating voting for SF should read & digest this article. Be very careful what you wish for....

Unfortunately, and with respect to DOB, it is nothing more than a propaganda mouthpiece straight out of the Eoghan Harris editorial manifest of "How to bash SF".
That said, there are obvious and genuine concerns around SF, its past, the IRA and around the murder of Paul Quinn.
But the article attempts to propagate a view that the IRA is waiting in the wings, ready to impose a full military assault on the Irish people to impose its socialist militarist agenda.
Nothing could be further from the truth, and anyone following the affairs of NI, in particular SF and IRA could not possibly conclude anything other than the Republican movement strategy has been to abandon armed actions in favour of political representation. That said, the process has not been easy and obviously the Quinn murder shines a light on the 'baggage' of SF.
But DoB goes a bit further here today. He proclaims that SF has a private army. The implication of the word 'army' suggests people ('shadowy' ones at that, aka as political advisors and strategists) equipped for military purposes.
This goes against all the evidence on the ground.
Did 'shadowy' people order Mary Lou to stand with in the Creggan and condemn the murderers of Lyra McKee?
Did shadowy people order Martin McG to label the killers of British soldiers in Ireland as traitors?
If so, shouldn't we applaud the 'shadowy' people?
A simple observation of SF and DUP restoration of Stormont, supported by Irish and British governments, without one reference to SFs 'private army' is testament to false narrative being peddled by DoB.
So either he has some information that the DUP and the two Governments have missed, in which case he should forward that information to Gardai, or he is acting as a mouthpiece to propagate an agenda for political means.

DoB opens up by referring to the plight of Venezuelans under the Maduro administration and the economic collapse, convenienty omitting that the US has imposed economic sanctions against Venezuela primarily for the purpose of causing economic collapse in the hope that a new administration, one friendly to US corporations, can be installed.
That said, DoB even refers to NI as some sort of failing central American socialist economy - who has been governing this entity for a 100yrs? - was it SF?
So while deploring the effects of 'failed' socialist policies in South and Central America, DoB seems somewhat benign to the existence of a similarly failing socialist entity called NI.

 

[joe sod]

Important article by Dan O'Brien in today's Indo. Anyone even contemplating voting for SF should read & digest this article. Be very careful what you wish for....

a very good article and food for thought. Yes we have problems in Ireland now but they are the problems of a wealthy european country, we could have really messed up after the financial crash and the poorest would have suffered the most as an insolvent country would not be able to pay for social welfare and public salaries. We could have the problems of Venezuela or Argentina the richest countries in the world a century ago which attracted huge numbers of european migrants. Now look at them, their experiments with socialism a total failure.
We in Ireland love to have a moan and a whinge, its a national trait, we are never happy until we are complaining about something.
As for Leo Varadker, I have never been a supporter of his but I think he has really stepped up to the mark in this election, I have warmed to him

 

[josh8267]

As for Leo Varadker, I have never been a supporter of his but I think he has really stepped up to the mark in this election, I have warmed to him

I agree 100% there are vested interests groups along with a Right Wing underbelly of intolerance, entrench somewhere in FG the popped there head a few times Leo was a bit slow in cutting there head off , he should have gone after the invisible intolerance holding him back,

I have already posted on this site in my view he won the leaders debate by a mile,

When he was in charge of social security he put out a press release you can still read it if you Google Leo's Prsi Plan,

The big mistake he made was when he became leader he did not follow through with his Plan,

There is Intolerance lurking just below the surface in Ireland it finds it home in the likes of FG and FF, he should have taken that intolerance on,

Once you scratch the surface you will find the kind of invisible intolerant idiot's who think the are above others rearing there head,

People are turning to SF because of the right wing idiot's you see lurking around, very few if any at all vote for there policies ,people are just trying to get the extreme right wing monkey off there back,

 

[WolfeTone]

There is Intolerance lurking just below the surface in Ireland it finds it home in the likes of FG and FF, he should have taken that intolerance on,

Once you scratch the surface you will find the kind of invisible intolerant idiot's who think the are above others rearing there head,

People are turning to SF because of the right wing idiot's you see lurking around, very few if any at all vote for there policies ,people are just trying to get the extreme right wing monkey off there back,

Well said.

 

[Delboy]

I agree 100% there are vested interests groups along with a Right Wing underbelly of intolerance, entrench somewhere in FG the popped there head a few times Leo was a bit slow in cutting there head off , he should have gone after the invisible intolerance holding him back,

I have already posted on this site in my view he won the leaders debate by a mile,

When he was in charge of social security he put out a press release you can still read it if you Google Leo's Prsi Plan,

The big mistake he made was when he became leader he did not follow through with his Plan,

There is Intolerance lurking just below the surface in Ireland it finds it home in the likes of FG and FF, he should have taken that intolerance on,

Once you scratch the surface you will find the kind of invisible intolerant idiot's who think the are above others rearing there head,

People are turning to SF because of the right wing idiot's you see lurking around, very few if any at all vote for there policies ,people are just trying to get the extreme right wing monkey off there back,

There is no right wing of any notable size in Ireland, certainly not one worth talking about. And certainly not one that dominated any Irish Govt.
So I'm not sure what bogeyman is keeping you up at night!

 

[elacsaplau]

In recent years, we have watched aghast & bemused as the Brits voted for Brexit & Boris and the Yanks for Trump. Is it now Paddy's turn to be an idiot and allow the Sinners to get their filthy hands on the tiller?

Oh my prophetic soul, perhaps [Hamlet, Act I]

I just smelt it...…..