irish ferries (new version)
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Ham Slicer
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Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?
Agree totally. If you supply the blue shirts I'll bring the batons
ronan_d_john said:Moderators etc - can we have a poll set up regarding this "Day of Protest"? Determine those who would/will go, versus those who wouldn't.
For me, I'm not going. I wouldn't go. And I don't support it at all. I'd love to see the same gardai on patrol that worked the infamous May Day Protests
Agree totally. If you supply the blue shirts I'll bring the batons
Im getting
Although mutiple IPs are easily used by same person, would they really be bothered? Id guess theres same amount of people who voted once during the day for one option and cant wait to get home and vote from the their home pc as there are those who want to vote another.
Although mutiple IPs are easily used by same person, would they really be bothered? Id guess theres same amount of people who voted once during the day for one option and cant wait to get home and vote from the their home pc as there are those who want to vote another.
car said:
In my boring boring job last year, I had great fun manipulating a poll that Fine Gael did on their website. Allowed multiple voting from same IP address. Did all that, told them I'd done it, and they still went public with the results. Do newspaper journalists do any research into what people tell them at all? Even something as simple as if you added the percentages of votes, it came to a total of 120%.
I wonder is this a forerunner to how they're planning to win the next election
Trying to vote - can't, not allowed. And I'm only trying to vote once - this isn't Northern Ireland, you know
But if I could; Yes, I support the demo
Yes, I will be there
Yes, participants should be paid........but on the following basis only, which is what happens in my own employment: Trade unions should approach employers requesting co-operation in facilitating the attendance of a small delegation from each workplace, where this is practically possible without undue disruption to services. I believe decent employers should respond positively to this request on the basis that it is supportive of the social partnership/industrial peace consensus that has been of enormous benefit to both employers and workers in the economy.
I don't suppose the Neanderthal school of industrial relations will agree, but it's a free country........
But if I could; Yes, I support the demo
Yes, I will be there
Yes, participants should be paid........but on the following basis only, which is what happens in my own employment: Trade unions should approach employers requesting co-operation in facilitating the attendance of a small delegation from each workplace, where this is practically possible without undue disruption to services. I believe decent employers should respond positively to this request on the basis that it is supportive of the social partnership/industrial peace consensus that has been of enormous benefit to both employers and workers in the economy.
I don't suppose the Neanderthal school of industrial relations will agree, but it's a free country........
Observer said:
What about teachers trade unions in secondary schools requesting principals that students be allowed leave school on Friday to attend the protest as well?
I think this is disgraceful. Saying that they should be allowed because it's their own future (the students) that's at stake in this whole issue.
I don't suppose being a sea-man on the Irish Sea is very high on the jobs that career guidance teachers are being asked about.
Scaremongering in its worst form.
Observer said:Trying to vote - can't, not allowed. And I'm only trying to vote once - this isn't Northern Ireland, you know
But if I could; Yes, I support the demo
Yes, I will be there
Yes, participants should be paid........but on the following basis only, which is what happens in my own employment: Trade unions should approach employers requesting co-operation in facilitating the attendance of a small delegation from each workplace, where this is practically possible without undue disruption to services. I believe decent employers should respond positively to this request on the basis that it is supportive of the social partnership/industrial peace consensus that has been of enormous benefit to both employers and workers in the economy.
I don't suppose the Neanderthal school of industrial relations will agree, but it's a free country........
Why on earth should an employer pay for u to take off x no. of hours. Since u want to go why shouldn't you bear the cost?
I belive decent employees should pay their own way.
jem said:
Because the stable system of industrial relations we have in this country has been successful and has benefitted both sides of industry. Irish Ferries behaviour puts this at risk and hence poses a risk to employers as well as workers. I'm simply suggesting that, where possible/practicable, it is in the interest of decent employers to co-operate with the release of a small number of staff to attend the demo.
Same reason that when unions step out of line or depart from national norms, other unions and ICTU will put pressure on them to come back in line. Happens all the time.
Observer said:
I'm sorry, but in my opinion, this is rubbish.
While the manner in which Irish Ferries have acted is unfortunate, they are not doing anything that would risk any future industrial relations peace and tranquility by the basic facts of what they are doing - something which they are legally entitled to do by Irish and international laws.
It is the actions of the unions and their calls for reviews of whether or not they'd re-enter national negotiations for the next round that is jeopardising industrial relations in this country.
There is nothing that is being done by Irish Ferries that is going to "pose a risk to employers" - it is the actions of the unions that is doing this indirectly because of their threat not to involve themselves in future national negotiations.
Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?
The logic here appears to be (i) management, though they have failed in their task to make/keep IF viable and profitable are sacrosanct and "irreplaceable" so nothing must change there; (ii) their employees have done everything required of them but because of something imputed to be a law of nature (i.e. "the way of the world") they can lose their living because the individuals in (i) have been remiss in their responsibilities.
So this would be an inversion of that sensible New Testament injunction:- "Of him to whom much is given, much will be expected; and of him to whom little is given, little will be expected"..........which incidentally is Karl Marx's idea of fundamental social justice, of contribution to the common weal(th) according to ability and access to the common weal(th) in proportion to one's need in time of need.
This is in my view fundamental respect for others.
To the initial question of "why the fuss", perhaps this arises from recognition that this event and others which are not raised to national and international profile but which are occurring presently are (i) shifting the balance of power and wealth in such a manner that private individuals and shareholders of private enterprises (e.g. Rupert Murdoch, Warner/AOL, Disney Corporation) now hold more power and wealth than many nations and that (ii) this ushers in regression of conditions for the individual employee - in terms of insecurity and potential for exploitation - to those of the 1930's and 1940's when people died of starvation and families sold their children into "service" abroad because they could not feed them.
Lest we forget.
ubiquitous said:
The logic here appears to be (i) management, though they have failed in their task to make/keep IF viable and profitable are sacrosanct and "irreplaceable" so nothing must change there; (ii) their employees have done everything required of them but because of something imputed to be a law of nature (i.e. "the way of the world") they can lose their living because the individuals in (i) have been remiss in their responsibilities.
So this would be an inversion of that sensible New Testament injunction:- "Of him to whom much is given, much will be expected; and of him to whom little is given, little will be expected"..........which incidentally is Karl Marx's idea of fundamental social justice, of contribution to the common weal(th) according to ability and access to the common weal(th) in proportion to one's need in time of need.
This is in my view fundamental respect for others.
To the initial question of "why the fuss", perhaps this arises from recognition that this event and others which are not raised to national and international profile but which are occurring presently are (i) shifting the balance of power and wealth in such a manner that private individuals and shareholders of private enterprises (e.g. Rupert Murdoch, Warner/AOL, Disney Corporation) now hold more power and wealth than many nations and that (ii) this ushers in regression of conditions for the individual employee - in terms of insecurity and potential for exploitation - to those of the 1930's and 1940's when people died of starvation and families sold their children into "service" abroad because they could not feed them.
Lest we forget.
Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?
I suspect when the chickens of privatisation, so-called "public-private partnership", "outsourcing" and "contracting-out" come home to roost there may be some nostalgia for those bad bad folk who work in what is scathingly (and completely erroneously) perceived as an underworked, overpaid "public sector".
Ireland is rushing towards this at full tilt. A more reasoned approach might be to research the hard evidence of the myth "public sector bad, private sector good" (Orwell's Animal Farm........and remember how that cookie crumbled!) To take just one instance - UK health services - contracting-out has resulted in surgical procedures which regularly breach safety standards and leave patients severely impaired as well as traumatised, increasingly-infectious hospitals which themselves produce iatrogenous dangers, increased staff turnover, performance of critical work such as drug-prescribing by lesser-trained personnel to reduce budgets for medically-trained doctors, increased inefficiency and bureaucracy, increased (not decreased!) waste.
Purple said:
I suspect when the chickens of privatisation, so-called "public-private partnership", "outsourcing" and "contracting-out" come home to roost there may be some nostalgia for those bad bad folk who work in what is scathingly (and completely erroneously) perceived as an underworked, overpaid "public sector".
Ireland is rushing towards this at full tilt. A more reasoned approach might be to research the hard evidence of the myth "public sector bad, private sector good" (Orwell's Animal Farm........and remember how that cookie crumbled!) To take just one instance - UK health services - contracting-out has resulted in surgical procedures which regularly breach safety standards and leave patients severely impaired as well as traumatised, increasingly-infectious hospitals which themselves produce iatrogenous dangers, increased staff turnover, performance of critical work such as drug-prescribing by lesser-trained personnel to reduce budgets for medically-trained doctors, increased inefficiency and bureaucracy, increased (not decreased!) waste.
I'm not saying it should be compulsory for employees to be paid - i'm merely saying that reasonable employers and unions might well reach agreement on paid release for a small delegation from a particular employment. I don't see how this is unreasonable and its the sort of thing union and management negotiators can handle without difficulty where there is a history of positive relationships in the workplace.jem said:
RainyDay said:
Totally accept this RainyDay, but unfortunately, given who's getting them to leave school for the day to go to the protest, they're hardly likely to get a balanced description of what's actually going on.
A couple of hours reading AAM rather than being inducted into union activities for an afternoon would be far more worth while way of learning about life.
I think this is a sinister move by teachers trade unions. Has anyone any info on how many/ any children went to the protests.ronan_d_john said:
Not one person in my company asked to go or took the day off to go. These sort of publicity stunts by the unions are treated with derision and contempt by most people working in private sector that I have talked to.
All of the reasons why this is a red herring and is not the thin end of the wedge etc, has been outlined above by various posters. Those who do not see this choose not to see because reality doesn't fit in with their political beliefs.
Irish trade unions sold out the poor years ago. They sold out low paid workers at the same time. They have no interest in really helping to keep low paid and/or manufacturing jobs in this country because doing so would require them to push for wage moderation and a more business friendly environment. 100 jobs a week are going in manufacturing, the traditional home of the trade union, and they are doing nothing about it because things like benchmarking and the realities of what that does to the cost base of the economy does not fit in with their real public sector agenda.
ubiquitous
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The pointlessness of Friday's exercise was underlined in stark terms this morning with the emergence of news of a grubby turf war between SIPTU and the Seamen's Union over who is going to represent the new Irish Ferries workforce.