irish ferries (new version)

[Purple]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

Hi Ronan,
It is illegal for an Irish company to sack or make a person redundant simply to replace them with a lower paid worker doing the same job. Irish Ferries are able to do what they are doing only because of the unique situation that exists under international maritime law. That is why the union assertion that this is the start of the race to the bottom is bogus. Our Celtic tiger economy was built by doing the same thing to German and American workers. The US multinationals didn’t “create” jobs in Ireland they relocated them here. That’s how we got the jobs so we can’t complain when poorer countries do the same to us. That’s life, harsh and all that it is for those at the coalface. The hypocrisy shown by the unions would be breath taking if it wasn’t so expected.

 

[jem]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

Great post purple.
Reading this tread there is a very obvious split- the unionised/labour supporters v the self employed/those who live in the real world .
Unions WERE very important back in history however their day has come and gone in their present format. In reality they have become more of a hinderance rather than a help trying to justify their own well paid union jobs, I can see a major strike comming for this reason- cie, an post esb one of these.See the attempt to go on strike over extra carriages on luas eventually common sense prevaled because they realised they had no support and it would damage what little respect that they retain.

 

[RainyDay]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

The limit is minimum wage legislation, fought for by the unions, and one of the highest in Europe, I understand. This arguement is bogus. .

I wouldn't bet my house on our current minimum wage levels, which could be cut with the stroke of a pen, should our Govt so choose.

Great post purple.
Reading this tread there is a very obvious split- the unionised/labour supporters v the self employed/those who live in the real world .
Unions WERE very important back in history however their day has come and gone in their present format. In reality they have become more of a hinderance rather than a help trying to justify their own well paid union jobs, I can see a major strike comming for this reason- cie, an post esb one of these.See the attempt to go on strike over extra carriages on luas eventually common sense prevaled because they realised they had no support and it would damage what little respect that they retain.

So what about non-unionised Labour supporters who live in the real world and work for US multi-nationals? Which of your convenient pigeonholes would you fit me into?

The same union leadership who you see fit to denigrate played a major role in preventing the DART drivers dispute turning into a strike which would inconvenience customers.

 

[Humpback]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

The same union leadership who you see fit to denigrate played a major role in preventing the DART drivers dispute turning into a strike which would inconvenience customers.

But in the "real world" most employees who may have been asked to drive (use term loosely) a train where there is no difference to their work load or responsibilities when they're driving four trains instead of three wouldn't have made such a big deal about it in the first place.

It was because they had union backup that they could make a big deal about absolutely nothing.

 

[jem]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

So what about non-unionised Labour supporters who live in the real world and work for US multi-nationals? Which of your convenient pigeonholes would you fit me into?.

Labour supporters

The same union leadership who you see fit to denigrate played a major role in preventing the DART drivers dispute turning into a strike which would inconvenience customers.

And it wasn't the union that was going on strike. It was only when they realised public opinion was so much against them that they decided against it.In one way it would have been good had they gone on strike as IMHO it would have been the straw that broke the unions back once and for all.
If we go into a +/- of unions we could break the longets tread record(we propably hold it already in the old FFv LAb tread on ezboard or the very old tread from marrion and G> on teachers. I would remind you that it is unions that are stoping more people being employed in the prision service as it will affect overtime.

 

[Purple]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

I wouldn't bet my house on our current minimum wage levels, which could be cut with the stroke of a pen, should our Govt so choose.

I would bet my house, indeed my life, that this would not happen.

Do you not accept that it is utterly hypocritical for unions on the one hand to celebrate the relocation of jobs from the US and western continental Europe to Ireland (stealing jobs from our international labour brethren), and on the other hand giving out about the same thing happening to us? This is the positive trickle down effect of globalisation on poorer economies.

Relocation of jobs to the Far East has lead to more freedom and helped to lift millions out of poverty. I would hope the same thing would happen in Africa in time to come. My company is affected more than most by this phenomenon but I support it 100%. We have destroyed poor economies by dumping our subsidised agricultural goods while putting up trade barriers for goods coming in the other direction. Do you think that we should give them nothing back after destroying their economies? Are those from poorer countries not entitled to sit at our table or should we keep the door closed and keep building our economy on the heads of others?
What is IBEC's stance on this?

 

[elcato]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

In response to

Has management come out and say they are accepting eastern european wages ?

ubi wrote

What has this to do with anything?

I'm not arguing any union position here at all so I dont fall into either category of Purples post above. I do, however, believe in the old adage of 'you should not expect someone you are in charge of to do something you are not willing to do yourself'. It has been known for years that IF were in trouble but now the blame appears to be apportioned to the staff as oppose to management. The state of their boats leave a lot to be desired. As usual though its the lowest rung that takes the brunt of the blame.

 

[ubiquitous]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

This issue is obviously dividing people into 2 camps, both here and elsewhere. Rather than putting contentious labels on each side, I think it is more useful to describe the debate as being about the acceptable limits of free enterprise.

In the past, I have had very bad experiences of dealing with Irish Ferries as a customer, and as such I would have a very jaundiced view of the company as a whole (but not of their staff). However I do think that the management are right to take whatever measures are necessary to adapt to their changing marketplace. Otherwise there is an obvious risk that the company will go under and in that scenario everyone will lose out.

Of course the unions are right to argue their corner on this but this should not extend to the sort of anti-enterprise vitriol that we have been hearing from union leaders, and (shamefully) from policitians, recently. Profit is not a dirty word and it is dangerous to pretend that the whole environment for investment and enterprise in this country will not be damaged if reputable established companies are treated as ogres for restructuring their cost bases when they face difficulty.

 

[ubiquitous]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

I do, however, believe in the old adage of 'you should not expect someone you are in charge of to do something you are not willing to do yourself'. It has been known for years that IF were in trouble but now the blame appears to be apportioned to the staff as oppose to management. The state of their boats leave a lot to be desired. As usual though its the lowest rung that takes the brunt of the blame.

Fair enough but I fail to see how Irish Ferries' interests can be protected by cutting their pay rates to management. Any company like Irish Ferries will not prosper if they are unable to retain and attract the services of good-quality managements. If they pay less than market rates, then the only managers they will attract will be those who are not skilful or competent enough to attract market rates elsewhere.

There is, admittedly, an obvious imbalance here between management staff (who cannot feasibly be replaced by lower-paid equivalents) and operational employees (who, for better or worse, can). There is also an uncomfortable truism that, in any scenario of business disruption, those at the bottom of the ladder will suffer disproportionately in comparison to those higher up.

However these are facts of life and it is futile to develop business or social policy on some sort of fantasy that they don't exist in the real world.

 

[RainyDay]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

There is, admittedly, an obvious imbalance here between management staff (who cannot feasibly be replaced by lower-paid equivalents) and operational employees (who, for better or worse, can

I would bet my house that Irish Ferries could find cheaper managers in Eastern Europe or overseas who wouldn't have driven the company into the ground by increasing capacity in a shrinking market.

 

[jem]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

And I am sure they are like turkeys voting for christmas.
CAn you pick one company where anyone decided to sack themselves

 

[RainyDay]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

And I am sure they are like turkeys voting for christmas.
CAn you pick one company where anyone decided to sack themselves

But isn't it the duty of the board to ensure shareholder value? If they can get cheaper managers elsewhere (possibly managers who don't buy additional capacity to respond to a shrinking market), shouldn't the board (as opposed to the managers themselves) be making this happen?

 

[Humpback]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

CAn you pick one company where anyone decided to sack themselves

Well, technically, anyone who accepts a redundancy offer is voting to sack themselves.

 

[Purple]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

A spokesman for Irish Ferries said on the radio on Tuesday that the number of managers had been reduced by one third over the last few years so they have taken some pain as well. The reality is that as a group the wages of the managers is irrelevant in comparison to those of the crew.
90% of the crew have accepted the terms of the deal and 10% are screwing things up for everyone. That’s not very democratic, but since when have unions been interested in democracy?

 

[Gordanus]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

The ferries are grand for freight, but as a passenger transport they will only get more and more expensive and less and less profitable.

z

As the passenger numbers go down, they will need less staff. They need to attract more of the freight business. I presume this is what they wanted to do when they hired the Philipina hairdresser at E1 per hour? The lorry drivers were just desperate for a hairstyling session - and maybe a massage, a facial, and a bit of a day spa on the trip?

 

[Gordanus]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

From yesterday's Irish Times (not everyone has a subscription):
Irish Continental Group (owner of Irish Ferries) Board:

Executive directors:
E Rothwell E687,000 in 2004, up from E652,000 in 2003
G O'Dea E321,000 in 2004, up from E283,000
A Kelly E224,000 in 2004, same as 2003

Non-exec directors:
J McGuckian E73,000 in 2004, up from E35,000 in 2003
P Crowley E40,000 in 2004, up from E9,000 in 2003
B Somers E33,000 in 2004

Profits before tax were E9.2million, down for E17.7million the previous year (2003).

hmmmmmm.

 

[ubiquitous]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

This levels of salaries would not be untypical for the board members of a public limited company.

 

[Purple]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

Hi Gordanus, that's a total increase of €142'000 for the board. It's nothing in the scheme of things. The biggest proportional increases were given to the non-exec directors. Do you know if their workload increased in 2005? Non-executive directors can do anything from a few days a year to a few days a week so their pay level can vary hugely.

 

[MOB]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

I am sorry to go off on a tangent, but:

Q. What's the difference between a non-exec director and a shopping trolley?

A. A shopping trolley has a mind of its own, and there's a limit to how much food you can pack into it.

 

[Purple]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

Very good MOB, you cynic you.