irish ferries (new version)

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

Purple said:

Hi Gordanus, that's a total increase of €142'000 for the board. It's nothing in the scheme of things.

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Even when the profits are so reduced?

"It's nothing in the scheme of things"

Obviously am in the wrong sector........money is obviously more important than say, running major hospitals and being personally liable for things going wrong, like Senior Consultants/Clinical Directors. But that's another thread.

How does one get to be a non-executive director? Should I post this in the Careers Forum?

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

Gordanus said:

money is obviously more important than say, running major hospitals and being personally liable for things going wrong, like Senior Consultants/Clinical Directors.
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This is off topic but how many Senior Consultants/Clinical Directors have been held personally liable to the extent of loosing their job over the last 10 years. Incidentally only the top two people in the company earn more than the average hospital consultant. Senior consultants earn more than any of them. So why not apply for one of those jobs while you are at it.

The point is that top jobs pay well. What matters is how the top people perform and for me the big issue is how those charged with running Irish Ferries managed to get to this stage, why didn't they do something sooner?

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Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

From the Irish Ferries annual report published last April, quoted in Saturday's Irish Times:
"....good corporate citizenship, conducting its business with integrity and respect for others......offer a positive employment environment ........ respect the environment and communities within which it operates.....positive employment policies that provide equal and opportunities for all existing and potential employees...........we have collective agreements in place with a significant proportion of our employees and if and when disputes arise we are committed to following the dispute resolution mechanisms set out in these agreements"

This report also states "the Directors have a reasonable expectation the Company and the Group have adequate resources to continue in operational existence for the foreseeable future."

Personally, I feel the Irish Ferries dispute is the celtic Tiger showing its claws. Ever since we accepted that companies can operate without trade unions here in Ireland - remember that McDonalds dispute in the 80s? - conditions were bound to go backwards for workers.

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

Does anyone have figured for what proportion of those working on board the ferries operated by other companies on the Irish Sea are employed directly?
It struck me that if Stenna etc contract out the restaurants and cleaning etc on board and the logistics etc on land to low cost labour at the moment then they can say that they will not do the same thing to their staff as Irish Ferries but in reality they would be doing so at the moment.
Are Irish ferries actually operating at a competitive disadvantage at the moment and if not why can the other Ferry companies continue to operate at a profit with the same cost base?
Is it true that they have better conditions than any other ferry workers (e.g. one week on, one week off)?
Something doesn’t stack up and I haven’t seen any real analyses in the media examining the veracity of the claims made by either side.

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

This report also states "the Directors have a reasonable expectation the Company and the Group have adequate resources to continue in operational existence for the foreseeable future."

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This is a standard "going concern" declaration that the directors of all companies are required to make in their annual accounts. In general if the directors are unable or unwilling to make such a declaration, this is generally understood as a sign that a company is insolvent or in imminent danger of collapse. The term "foreseeable future" in this context covers the period of 12 months from the date when the accounts are signed off. There are specific procedures that a company must follow in relation to the way its accounts are presented when a negative declaration is made in this regard.

I didn't read the Irish Times article to which you refer but it is utterly misleading to infer that the long-term profitability outlook of any company can be assured as a result of such a declaration appearing in the accounts.

Ever since we accepted that companies can operate without trade unions here in Ireland - remember that McDonalds dispute in the 80s? - conditions were bound to go backwards for workers.

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If we had accepted the opposite principle and made it compulsory for employers to accept trade union representation for their employees, how many of our biggest and best employers such as Dell, Intel or Microsoft would have established themselves here? Forgive me if I'm deluded but I would have thought that working entitlements and conditions for employees have vastly improved on all fronts since the 80s.

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

From RTE news web site today The announcement comes as 71 jobs are lost at a manufacturing plant in Rathnew, Co Wicklow. The gas equipment maker Harris Calorific is to close its plant before the end of the year and is to relocate to Eastern Europe. The company said rising labour costs had made it difficult to compete with rivals.

Separately, 85 jobs are to be lost in Indreabhán, Co Galway with the closure of Maysteel Teoranta. The company lost out on a major contract with IBM last week, and has failed to find another market for its computer components.Workers are to be briefed in a meeting with management this afternoon. It is expected the company will cease trading early in the New Year.

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What is the difference between what Irish Ferries are doing and what is happening every day in the open part of the economy, i.e. outsourcing to a lower cost economy but continuing to sell their products in Ireland?
Why do the unions not care about the above?
Why are they asking workers in equally precarious positions to take the day off on Friday?
What sort of a signal does that send to the corporate bean counters in the head offices of multi national companies who are looking at our high labour costs and asking themselves if things would not be better in Poland or India?
Given the above why not have their day out on Saturday?

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

Purple said:

What is the difference between what Irish Ferries are doing and what is happening every day in the open part of the economy, i.e. outsourcing to a lower cost economy but continuing to sell their products in Ireland?
Why do the unions not care about the above?

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It's been the same in Donegal over the last few years, many more jobs have been lost than what is at stake in Irish ferries, and there hasn't been too much said by Bertie or the unions. I guess the difference is that Irish Ferries have are not leaving the country (just reflagging) and are and Irish company as opposed to a multinational.

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

Donegal has been hit harder than anywhere else in the country from what I can see. But that's life in the real world. The unions don't comment on it since they don't have to live in it.

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

Purple said:

What is the difference between what Irish Ferries are doing and what is happening every day in the open part of the economy, i.e. outsourcing to a lower cost economy but continuing to sell their products in Ireland?

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Irish Ferries aren't outsourcing to a lower cost economy. They are outsourcing to lower cost staff within the same economy. No other employer in Ireland has fired staff and replaced them directly in situ with cheaper staff (and tried to get the state to subsidise their termination costs via redundancy support & tax relief).

But as it happens, I agree with you about holding the demo on Saturday.

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

if Irish Ferries are in such dire straits, maybe the management should be outsourced....daithi

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

I think outsourcing is a defacto part of all modern industry. It has been happening in the states for ages. Irish Ferries mode of action though is comical.

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

RainyDay said:

Irish Ferries aren't outsourcing to a lower cost economy. They are outsourcing to lower cost staff within the same economy.

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Legally they are outsourcing to a lower cost economy, they are serving the
same economy. This is not the start of the race to the bottom that the unions and some left wing commentator’s claim since no land based company can re-flag. The equivalent for other companies is to up sticks and move the whole operation. My point is that this is happening every week and for the people who loose their jobs it matters not a whit where the new operation is based.

RainyDay said:

No other employer in Ireland has fired staff and replaced them directly in situ with cheaper staff (and tried to get the state to subsidise their termination costs via redundancy support & tax relief).

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No other company in Ireland can, unless they are a shipping company.

I think what Irish Ferries is doing is regrettable but probably necessary. I think the way they have done it is disgraceful.
What gets me most is the hypocrisy of those who complain about this and ignore the fact that the Irish economy has been built by having a parasitic relationship with richer countries.

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

if it was back in the 1980's and the other way around we would be over the moon. In fact that is what happened with companies closing else where and moving here for our low wages(at the time) /low taxes etc.
swings and roundabouts.
quite frankly IMHO anyone who misses work to attend this "rally"(extra days shopping) should be assumed to have walked out of their job and therefore have left same for good.

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

No other employer in Ireland has fired staff and replaced them directly in situ with cheaper staff (and tried to get the state to subsidise their termination costs via redundancy support & tax relief).

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Wake up. This happens every day of the week. Literallly, thousands and thousands of Irish companies (large and small) have gone through processes of making cleaning or other low-level operational employees redundant and engaging contractors to take responsibility for hiring staff to do exactly the same work in exactly the same place, except at lower cost.

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

I'd bet a pound (or Euro) to a pinch of you know what that over 90% of those at the "rally" will be public sector workers. The rest of us will just have to work a bit harder to cover their wages. As usual the unions have hijacked a difficult situation and are using it for their own selfish ends. They would be just as happy to feed the Irish Ferries workers to the wolves if it suited their public sector/ civil service agenda.

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

Moderators etc - can we have a poll set up regarding this "Day of Protest"? Determine those who would/will go, versus those who wouldn't.

For me, I'm not going. I wouldn't go. And I don't support it at all. I'd love to see the same gardai on patrol that worked the infamous May Day Protests

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

Internet polls are a joke as they are so easy to manipulate.

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

ubiquitous said:

Internet polls are a joke as they are so easy to manipulate.

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Fair enough.

But disagree with your comment. Polls can be set up to accept only one vote from individual IP addresses to ensure that a person only votes once.

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

We will try it on this occation if it is messed up it will be the last one.

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

How do you vote?