irish ferries (new version)

[Capaill]

Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

Excuse my ignorance in asking this question but why is there such a fuss over Irish Ferries outsourcing jobs?

My understanding is that these jobs are being outsourced to more competitive labour who will not be resident in this country. As such Irish Ferries does not have to worry about paying Irish minimum wages.

Having worked in the IT industry and seeing, and experiencing, the impact of outsourcing jobs to cheaper economies I am getting sick to my teeth of people protesting over their right to a job for life.

C

 

[ClubMan]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

I think that the fuss is due to the fact that management agreed a deal with the employees and are now reneging on this and ignoring the rulings of statutory bodies (e.g. the Labour Court etc.) on matters.

 

[Humpback]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

I second that. For most other people in private business employment, such redundancy activities are a fact of life, and people get on with things.

These outsourced people will be earning the internationally accepted minimum wage for onboard employees, and won't have to pay any tax, and they're being paid bed and board as well.

And if they don't like their T's & C's, like everyone else, they're entitled to leave their job and go elsewhere. They don't have to work for Irish Ferries.

It's unfortunate that the 10% of a the current Irish Ferries crew aren't happy with their redundancy package, but most people aren't. But again, they get on with things.

Lets see ESB shop employees shutting themselves into their stores to keep out Bank of Scotland management? Or First Active/Ulster Bank employees shutting out Royal Bank of Scotland management?

Redundancies are a fact of life, and most people realise this and manage it, somehow. I know a number of people who make a pretty good living out of redundancy payments.
I've been through it myself, and have sorted myself out after a period of time. I've no sympathy for those that won't bother doing this.

 

[Humpback]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

I think that the fuss is due to the fact that management agreed a deal with the employees and are now reneging on this and ignoring the rulings of statutory bodies (e.g. the Labour Court etc.) on matters.

But wasn't this only an agreement on timing rather than the substance of the agreements?

 

[RainyDay]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

It's unfortunate that the 10% of a the current Irish Ferries crew aren't happy with their redundancy package, but most people aren't. But again, they get on with things.

Don't assume that because 90% voted to accept the offer, they were actually happy with the offer. They weren't - the gun was put to their head - accept this offer or get nothing next time round.

 

[Humpback]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

Don't assume that because 90% voted to accept the offer, they were actually happy with the offer. They weren't - the gun was put to their head - accept this offer or get nothing next time round.

I accept that this is the case being put forward by the unions, but to be honest, I don't believe it.

All redundancy offers are a take it or leave it offer. Irish Ferries is no different to any other company in that fashion. You take the offer, or leave it.

Using the terms "gun to head" is very emotive, but a complete smoke screen by the unions. Every person everywhere has a gun to their head when their offered redundancy.

It's my opinion that on an initial examination of the offer, the staff that accepted were happy enough when they got it, but when the union found out, and wanted to make their big deal about it, this is when the "next time around" issue, and "gun to heads" issues were raised.

As was mentioned on Q&A last night by the economist, I do believe that this is an issue of union relevancy more than anything else.

 

[onekeano]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

As was mentioned on Q&A last night by the economist, I do believe that this is an issue of union relevancy more than anything else.

Fully agree, I thought Dan "Deadpan" McLoughin was brilliant last night in disecting SIPTUs real agenda on this issue and how it would not become the norm in Ireland because of the minimum wage.

Roy

 

[RainyDay]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

I accept that this is the case being put forward by the unions, but to be honest, I don't believe it.

All redundancy offers are a take it or leave it offer. Irish Ferries is no different to any other company in that fashion. You take the offer, or leave it.

Using the terms "gun to head" is very emotive, but a complete smoke screen by the unions. Every person everywhere has a gun to their head when their offered redundancy.

It's my opinion that on an initial examination of the offer, the staff that accepted were happy enough when they got it, but when the union found out, and wanted to make their big deal about it, this is when the "next time around" issue, and "gun to heads" issues were raised.

As was mentioned on Q&A last night by the economist, I do believe that this is an issue of union relevancy more than anything else.

Unions are driven by their members. It's the members who decide how big an issue to make of things, not the union officials.

 

[elcato]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

Getting back to the IF dispute, they have been going downhill badly for years now which surely must be down to bad management. Has management come out and say they are accepting eastern european wages ? (I actaully dont know but haven't heard any such talk). While the staff have to take some responibilty for this I feel they are the greater losers. No doubt a certain Micko is eyeing another business venture here.

 

[zag]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

The passenger ferry routes between Ireland & Sctoland/England/Wales will never get back to the profitability (or load) levels of 10 and more years ago.

Not unless there is some catastrophic problem with low cost airlines and if that happens people will be worrying about more than the pay rates on the ferry.

The fact is that unless you happen to be conducting business in Holyhead/Pembroke/Fishguard/Liverpool you face a long trip after you arrive on what is a relatively slow transport. Most times it is faster and cheaper to fly somewhere, hire a car and drive to your destination than to take the ferriy.

The ferries are grand for freight, but as a passenger transport they will only get more and more expensive and less and less profitable.

z

 

[ubiquitous]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

Has management come out and say they are accepting eastern european wages ?

What has this to do with anything?

 

[Gordanus]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

What has this to do with anything?

One of the things that was reported near the beginning of this dispute, was that "Irish" Ferries had brought in management consultants well over a year ago to look at increasing their profitability. The consultants recommended that senior management/directors take a pay cut as their salaries were not justified by the profits. Management rejected this.

By the way, I assume the poor buggers coming from E Europe will have their bed-and-board deducted from their pay; and will have to pay the normal prices for everything, including travel home, should they want to spend time with their families and friends. Sooner or later, they will realise that international minimum wages just don't cut it in expensive economies like W Europe. It may be ok in Asia...........

 

[Guest127]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

if irish ferries succeed in this con of saying they have to make irish staff redundant and replace them with less well paid eastern european (eu citizens) whats to stop Cie doing the same next year. tell the train drivers that they cant afford them and replace them with lower paid train drivers also from the eu but on much less wages. ( the min rate?) Then where? the bottom has no limit. and all the people who now feel 'wealthy' because of the equity in their houses might not feel so comfortable when government taxes etc start to dry up as income tax receipts etc starts to fall and the minister for finance has to find the money somewhere to fund an ever expanding budget. I have absolutely nothing against eastern europen citizens of the eu working in ireland. As long as employers dont try and manipulate the situation and exploit both their current staff and potential staff.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

"Irish" Ferries had brought in management consultants well over a year ago

Are you sure that this is true? I would guess that it was the unions or someone else who made this recommendation.

Irish Ferries has to compete with other ferry companies who have a much cheaper and much more flexible workforce. They have no choice but to implement these changes or go out of business.

I reckon the unions should be covered by the monopoly legislation. If they don't want to work, they should not be allowed to stop other people from working.

Brendan

 

[Lemurz]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

Seems to me this whole storm is back to basics - capitalism versus socialism!

Dell, Microsoft, Pfizer, Abbott and many other large employers wouldn't be in Ireland today if we favoured the socialist model. We can't have it both ways.

The only difference I see between manufacturing and shipping is that the ship docks in Ireland everyday. Fair play to Dan McLoughin on Q&A the other night - he spoke sense to a totally biased panel/audience. Definitely gets my vote for common sense. Just is case you missed you can see it here. Best Q&A I've watched to date!

[broken link removed]

 

[RainyDay]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

Irish Ferries has to compete with other ferry companies who have a much cheaper and much more flexible workforce. They have no choice but to implement these changes or go out of business.

They had plenty of choices. They had the choice not to enter a multi-year agreement with their workforce which they are now walking away from. They had the choice not to heavily invest in additional capacity for the Irish Sea when every observer could see the low-cost airlines tearing away at their market. Who's paying the price for management incompetence now?

I reckon the unions should be covered by the monopoly legislation. If they don't want to work, they should not be allowed to stop other people from working.

Welcome back Maggie - Where have you been all these years?

Seems to me this whole storm is back to basics - capitalism versus socialism!

Dell, Microsoft, Pfizer, Abbott and many other large employers wouldn't be in Ireland today if we favoured the socialist model. We can't have it both ways.

Far too simplistic. Remember that it was Ruairi Quinn (Labour) as Minister for Finance who brought into the low corporation tax rate. And it was Mary Harney (PD) who brought in the minimum wage. Labels aren't helping get to the bottom of this issue.

Is there any good reason why minimum-wage legislation shouldn't apply to ferry companies, just like every other business in Ireland?

 

[Brendan Burgess]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

RainyDay said:

Welcome back Maggie - Where have you been all these years?

and just six short lines or cogent argument later...

Labels aren't helping get to the bottom of this issue.

Unless, of course, the labels support the socialist point of view!

Brendan

 

[RainyDay]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

It's a fair cop - Just couldn't resist bringing the Maggie pic into the debate - must be a bit of a supressed dominatrix fetish, I reckon.

 

[Purple]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

if irish ferries succeed in this con of saying they have to make irish staff redundant and replace them with less well paid eastern european (eu citizens) whats to stop Cie doing the same next year.

The only reason that Irish Ferries can do this is because they can re-flag in any other EU country. This was allowed under one of the EU treaties, I think it was Maastricht but it could have been Nice. Under international law shipping companies are governed by the laws of the country that they are registered in, not the countries that they operate to and from. Therefore the case that this is the start of the “race to the bottom” does not stack up.

Is there any good reason why minimum-wage legislation shouldn't apply to ferry companies, just like every other business in Ireland?

For the same reasons outlined above. In law they are not, or will not be, operating in Ireland. They will be operating in Cyprus but running ships from Ireland.
Before anyone gets up on their high horse about this remember that we are doing the same thing in a much more blatant way in international finance. The IFSC was founded and continues to operate by stealing jobs from other economies and as if that wasn’t bad enough we steal the corporation taxes from the economies where the income was actually generated as well. What have SIPTU or the ICTU got to say about that?

Ferry companies have traditionally been sheltered from the cutthroat competition that exists in international freight shipping but this whole issue comes down to Zag’s point; there is no real future in passenger ferries. Therefore Irish Ferries has to become a freight company and adjust their cost base accordingly.

The ICTU is now calling for a 70’s style “national day of protest” on the 9th of this month. Why are they seeking to damage the economy and jeopardise more of the high risk, low paid jobs in this country? Would it be because most of the people working in the exposed sector of the economy do not belong to unions and have no time for them? Why not have their day of protest on a Saturday?
Are the unions making a big fuss about this because Irish Ferries used to be B&I lines which was government owned and unions are really only interested in the public sector (or former public sector) now days?

There is a lot wrong with the way the management of Irish Ferries have behaved but the unions are ignoring reality in a small economy that has been built on international trade and competition. Why don’t the boys and girls from the ICTU and the top floor of Liberty hall all line up on the beach and try and stop the tide from coming in?

 

[Humpback]

Re: Why such a fuss over Irish Ferries?

if irish ferries succeed in this con of saying they have to make irish staff redundant and replace them with less well paid eastern european (eu citizens) whats to stop Cie doing the same next year. tell the train drivers that they cant afford them and replace them with lower paid train drivers also from the eu but on much less wages. ( the min rate?) Then where? the bottom has no limit.

The limit is minimum wage legislation, fought for by the unions, and one of the highest in Europe, I understand. This arguement is bogus. It's a fact of life in every business - the alternative employees don't have to be coming from eastern europe, they could be your next door neighbour if they're qualified to do your job as well, but are willing to do your job and are offered a lower rate of pay.