P
peelaaa
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I'd like to know the full cost of all these letters. What a waste of money, couldn't even use it in the toilet either, wrong type of paper grade....
ICTUs 'Get Up, Stand Up campaign'
- Thread starter DerKaiser
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S
S.L.F
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Made from the exact same stuff the "Fianna Fail manifesto 2007" was made from.
"Trust us to manage the economy".
That's actually a good point... since the Unions were part of the coalition that ran the country for the last 10 years (they called themselves "Social Partners")
S
S.L.F
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ERSI was discussed here before
It might not be a bad idea to get all the stuff about the ERSI and put it all onto that thread.
It might not be a bad idea to get all the stuff about the ERSI and put it all onto that thread.
Interesting to see the union brethern take such a blatant partisan approach - openly calling on private sector workers to pay extra taxes to protect pay levels in the PS. They obviously believe that they have the muscle to force the government to impose even more taxes, to avoid cutting their PS members pay.
Very many tens of thousands of private sector employees were made compulsory redundant this year - whilst not one permanent PS employee has suffered the same faith. PS pensions were always and are most certainly now, a luxury that the tax payer cannot afford. And PS pay levels are amongst the best in the world.
The nonsense that the unions peddal about frontline services is pathetic. Private businesses have had to (and continue to) retrench massively, whilst simultaneously maintaining service levels, quality etc.
The formula for the PS is simple i.e. copy the private sector i.e. drastically cut headcount, cut payroll costs, implement more flexible work practices to maintain services, foster innovation.
If Cowen et al roll-over again to the PS unions, I believe that it will signal the end of any prospect of the recession ending within the next 3-4 years, as further tax hikes will choke off any hope of consumer spending recovering. On one level, this might not be a bad thing - it would virtually guarantee external (IMF or EU) intervention to force massive and radical changes in the PS.....
Very many tens of thousands of private sector employees were made compulsory redundant this year - whilst not one permanent PS employee has suffered the same faith. PS pensions were always and are most certainly now, a luxury that the tax payer cannot afford. And PS pay levels are amongst the best in the world.
The nonsense that the unions peddal about frontline services is pathetic. Private businesses have had to (and continue to) retrench massively, whilst simultaneously maintaining service levels, quality etc.
The formula for the PS is simple i.e. copy the private sector i.e. drastically cut headcount, cut payroll costs, implement more flexible work practices to maintain services, foster innovation.
If Cowen et al roll-over again to the PS unions, I believe that it will signal the end of any prospect of the recession ending within the next 3-4 years, as further tax hikes will choke off any hope of consumer spending recovering. On one level, this might not be a bad thing - it would virtually guarantee external (IMF or EU) intervention to force massive and radical changes in the PS.....
The people were obvioulsy happy enough sure didnt they vote back in the Govt on three different occassions.
We can vote the Government out. How do we get trade unions back into the hole they crawled out of
I have looked at the "Key Questions about the Crisis" and find the statements absurd:
"Equally, prompt Government intervention could help prevent a 'wipeout' in the construction industry and simultaneously fill gaps in our social and public infrastructure. And the delivery of new schools and clinics and better public transport could be funded through the setting up of a National Recovery Bond."
This is a short term measure which looks after the construction sector and the public sector. As we all have seen, the civil and public sector have really done well with the money to date. So now we should give them the last few euro we have? Money needs to be put in to private sector industries in areas such as financial services (to create jobs), energy, tele-services, I.T. and certain manufacturing sectors.
"And there is no iron clad rule that says that our 'period of adjustment' must be completed by 2013. That timeframe is the result of a political decision and, like all decisions, is liable to change.Congress has proposed stretching the period of adjustment over a longer timeframe. In doing so, you remove the need to cut hard and fast, softening the impact and scale of cuts. "
So this advocates letting the private sector rot as more and more lose their jobs just so the union members in the public sector don't have to feel any pain now? Can it read any other way?
"In the event of an upturn, the cost of servicing the debt will be far less problematic and less painful."
P-A-R-T-Y!!! The milky bars are on me!! Let's spend, spend, spend. Just keep the curtains closed because we don't want the 400,000 unemployed seeing this.
"Ireland's public spending is among the lowest in the EU 15 and is comparable with levels often found in the poorer accession states."
We don't have a military worth a damn. Could that explain some of the difference? Hey beardy brigade, wanna get 50,000 new public servants? Why not campaign for a fighting army!! That should increase our public spend.
"If we are to rebuild and rebuild in a sustainable manner, the tax base will have to be reconstructed...Simply cutting spending will not solve the enormous problems we face. Over the last 12 months, the Government has introduced two budgets, both of which took money out of the economy. But the situation has not improved, it has worsened."
And the two budgets increased taxes!! That's your "money out of the economy" piece, isn't it??? So if the situation has worsened then why not try the cuts?
Perhaps, and I am just pulling this one out of the sky, a mix of tax and cost-cutting could be the answer. We taxed already and have a report to tax more. Novel idea, let's look at cutting the spend.
So there you have it. They want the already suffering to suffer more with additional taxes and those that can't lose their jobs, get paid more and also get good pensions should be left alone. And when the upturn does come, you'll continue to pay for the borrowed money. But don't fret, it might be more money to pay back but it will be at a lower rate. Phew!
Social democracy has left the building.
"Equally, prompt Government intervention could help prevent a 'wipeout' in the construction industry and simultaneously fill gaps in our social and public infrastructure. And the delivery of new schools and clinics and better public transport could be funded through the setting up of a National Recovery Bond."
This is a short term measure which looks after the construction sector and the public sector. As we all have seen, the civil and public sector have really done well with the money to date. So now we should give them the last few euro we have? Money needs to be put in to private sector industries in areas such as financial services (to create jobs), energy, tele-services, I.T. and certain manufacturing sectors.
"And there is no iron clad rule that says that our 'period of adjustment' must be completed by 2013. That timeframe is the result of a political decision and, like all decisions, is liable to change.Congress has proposed stretching the period of adjustment over a longer timeframe. In doing so, you remove the need to cut hard and fast, softening the impact and scale of cuts. "
So this advocates letting the private sector rot as more and more lose their jobs just so the union members in the public sector don't have to feel any pain now? Can it read any other way?
"In the event of an upturn, the cost of servicing the debt will be far less problematic and less painful."
P-A-R-T-Y!!! The milky bars are on me!! Let's spend, spend, spend. Just keep the curtains closed because we don't want the 400,000 unemployed seeing this.
"Ireland's public spending is among the lowest in the EU 15 and is comparable with levels often found in the poorer accession states."
We don't have a military worth a damn. Could that explain some of the difference? Hey beardy brigade, wanna get 50,000 new public servants? Why not campaign for a fighting army!! That should increase our public spend.
"If we are to rebuild and rebuild in a sustainable manner, the tax base will have to be reconstructed...Simply cutting spending will not solve the enormous problems we face. Over the last 12 months, the Government has introduced two budgets, both of which took money out of the economy. But the situation has not improved, it has worsened."
And the two budgets increased taxes!! That's your "money out of the economy" piece, isn't it??? So if the situation has worsened then why not try the cuts?
Perhaps, and I am just pulling this one out of the sky, a mix of tax and cost-cutting could be the answer. We taxed already and have a report to tax more. Novel idea, let's look at cutting the spend.
So there you have it. They want the already suffering to suffer more with additional taxes and those that can't lose their jobs, get paid more and also get good pensions should be left alone. And when the upturn does come, you'll continue to pay for the borrowed money. But don't fret, it might be more money to pay back but it will be at a lower rate. Phew!
Social democracy has left the building.
What disappointed me about the mail shot from the unions was that it was decidedly short on practical things that could be achieved. "let's tackle the job crisis for example". What a great idea, I'm wondering why the Government hadn't thought of it !!!! I'm sure they sit in Dublin thinking the doles queues are awful, but we can't do anything about it. For me to take the unions more seriously they should come out with detailed proposals about what the union movement can do to assist in job creation and reducing the public deficit, not wishy washey statements about "reform". Fine, let's reform, what are they volunteering to give up as part of this?
As expected, this thread has turned into another public/private sector split. As someone who works in the private sector, it always disappoints me when public sector workers raise the pension levy. We pay that in the private sector, perhaps not as much, but the paycuts most of us have taken more then make up for it. Likewise, permanent private sector employees do not have the same job security as those in the public sector.
The issue of what a job is "worth" and ESRI reports and comparing Gardai with security guards is largely irrelevant. There is one very simple fact that we need to remember here. We dont have the money to keep paying the current public sector wage bill. Personnaly speaking, I would like to see Gardai, firemen and teachers paid more and bureaucrats less, but it actually doesn't matter any more, We don't have the money at the minute. Private sector employees have learnt that when a company is in that position, costs and services have to be cut to keep the company afloat. No one likes it, I've laid 25 people off this year and taking a paycut myself, but for the long term good of the organisation, it's shareholders, customers and remaining employees, it had to be done.
I know a number of union members in the private sector. From talking to them, if there is no effort to tackle the public sector wage bill, if taxes are increased instead to pay for it, their view is that there will be blood on the walls within the unions. There is the beginning of a clear split in some unions with private sector employees feeling that they are 2nd class members against their public sector counterparts
As expected, this thread has turned into another public/private sector split. As someone who works in the private sector, it always disappoints me when public sector workers raise the pension levy. We pay that in the private sector, perhaps not as much, but the paycuts most of us have taken more then make up for it. Likewise, permanent private sector employees do not have the same job security as those in the public sector.
The issue of what a job is "worth" and ESRI reports and comparing Gardai with security guards is largely irrelevant. There is one very simple fact that we need to remember here. We dont have the money to keep paying the current public sector wage bill. Personnaly speaking, I would like to see Gardai, firemen and teachers paid more and bureaucrats less, but it actually doesn't matter any more, We don't have the money at the minute. Private sector employees have learnt that when a company is in that position, costs and services have to be cut to keep the company afloat. No one likes it, I've laid 25 people off this year and taking a paycut myself, but for the long term good of the organisation, it's shareholders, customers and remaining employees, it had to be done.
I know a number of union members in the private sector. From talking to them, if there is no effort to tackle the public sector wage bill, if taxes are increased instead to pay for it, their view is that there will be blood on the walls within the unions. There is the beginning of a clear split in some unions with private sector employees feeling that they are 2nd class members against their public sector counterparts
The thing is that overall this document is a call to protect the public sector and construction industry. Pretty much be damned with the rest of you.
Couple of things we really have to start calling them out on in the media.
Yes the defict has worsened because they never cut public expenditure in the last budget and tried to just use tax. And the government has every intention of restructuring tax that was the whole point of the Tax Commission report. You can't use that against them. The problem is that it will take years to introduce those taxes and we don't have years to cut the current deficit.
Couple of things we really have to start calling them out on in the media.
This old chestnut annoys the hell out of me. First, why just the EU15? Is it because when you compare Ireland to countries of a similar size and population you get a less useful statistic? No it's better to compare us to higher tax economies with large public services. And again, must we not also include the statistic that we're among the highest spend on wages in the EU15. More of what we do spend goes on wages. Funny how that bit is never mentioned.
Yes the defict has worsened because they never cut public expenditure in the last budget and tried to just use tax. And the government has every intention of restructuring tax that was the whole point of the Tax Commission report. You can't use that against them. The problem is that it will take years to introduce those taxes and we don't have years to cut the current deficit.
I'd agree, but you seemed happy enough to discuss it and indeed label it as fiction on this thread right up until it was pointed out that they had made reasonable corrections in their figures to ensure a more accurate like-for-like comparisson.
Heard one of the Brothers on radio yesterday and he questioned where the evidence was that reflected cuts in pay in private sector !!!!
He siad it was not in recent CSO reports so like " its not happened" !!
Another guy who employs 11 people and struggling to survive in business was going beserk asking what planet the Brothers are living on. If it wasn't so serious it would be so funny, a great subject for a sit com, no acting required, just be themselves !!
We are involved in a sector wherby outside staff are covered by an REA, the emplyees have told us that they would take a pay cut to save jobs, but we have explained to them that we cannot touch their rates as we could be proscecuted ! The Directors have taken 2 10 % pay cuts, rest of office and management have taken a 10% pay cut. Its absurd that a business trying to survive cannot accept pay cuts offered by loyal staff.
secman
He siad it was not in recent CSO reports so like " its not happened" !!
Another guy who employs 11 people and struggling to survive in business was going beserk asking what planet the Brothers are living on. If it wasn't so serious it would be so funny, a great subject for a sit com, no acting required, just be themselves !!
We are involved in a sector wherby outside staff are covered by an REA, the emplyees have told us that they would take a pay cut to save jobs, but we have explained to them that we cannot touch their rates as we could be proscecuted ! The Directors have taken 2 10 % pay cuts, rest of office and management have taken a 10% pay cut. Its absurd that a business trying to survive cannot accept pay cuts offered by loyal staff.
secman
Agree completely. I wonder what sector union members come from?
As an aside Latrade, it looks like that tosh was written by me now!!!
Yikes! Corrected!
I honestly think we need to keep this going and keep calling out these statements. The amount of hypocrasy attached to that statement is so vast I honestly don't know where to begin. First is that they trot out one report as proof and won't accept criticism of it when it suits their argument and then other equally, if not more accurate, reports are to be ignored because they're contradict what they wish to be heard.
Second, there are more reports that the CSO. The IBEC quarterly business survey has far more accurate statistics direct from employers about cuts. Well that and an addition 200,000 on the live register.
It's like the recent statement of proof that the pension levy has saved any money. Fine, it's a valid question. But then they say tax everyone some more, erm but don't you say in your call to action that the tax increases haven't worked? So where's the proof that it will work this time around?
A really ignorant statement. There is no point even trying to debate with those who hold such a shockingly ignorant view.
No, this is schocking:
Q) What sort of complete enpty-heads think that what secman describes is a good idea?
A) The Bearded Brethren and their political wing Congress-The Labour Party.
I am not looking for a debate. I admire and respect the history of Trade Unions but the present bunch of union leaders are overpaid, egotistical loonies who have had their noses in the trough of social partnership for the past ten years and have got fat and greedy on the back of it.
They will bring this country to its knees and so be it. I work in a non-unionised company and I fancy our chances our survival are a lot greater than ones that have to deal with those crackpots.
+1
We saw nothing out of the boom except an erosion of our competitiveness due to increasing service charges and wage pressures fuelled by the Celtic Bubble. In real terms wages here have dropped each year for the last 10 years (starting from a high base) because we have had to compete with emerging competition in the Far East, Eastern Europe and Central America. We are accepting orders at lower unit prices than we did 12 years ago and we are still making a profit because we’ve got so much better at what we do.
From a business perspective it doesn’t matter one bit what the Irish economy does since none of our customers do any business here but I want my children to have a future here and if the cancer that is the present trade union movement get their way I know that as a nation we will be facing into decades of gloom and depression.
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