Touché!A little gift wrap for you two!
Obviously the understanding of the phrase 'parallel universe' and who actually lives in the real one passed you by
How we view international news; double standards
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TheBigShort
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https://louisallday.wordpress.com/2018/04/01/israel-the-semantics-of-propaganda/
Here is an alternative view, albeit referencing UK and US media I think it can be applied to Irish media reporting on Palestinian and Israel.
The article outlines the view that far from portraying Israel as the aggressor or the bad guy, that the media in fact use language that portrays Israel as the perpetual victim.
I think the article has merit.
Here is an alternative view, albeit referencing UK and US media I think it can be applied to Irish media reporting on Palestinian and Israel.
The article outlines the view that far from portraying Israel as the aggressor or the bad guy, that the media in fact use language that portrays Israel as the perpetual victim.
I think the article has merit.
TheBigShort
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Just my perspective, but the media response in Ireland to the shooting dead of a volunteer 21yr old medic by Israeli forces, who was helping the injured, is one of near apathy.
It sounds like something written by the People's Front of Judea.
In Ireland Hamas combatants are referred to as "Fighters" not as "Terrorists" even though the EU regards Hamas as a terrorist organisation. Semantics me This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language, as they say.
In Ireland we are cravenly pro-LBGT and yet we ignore the horrific treatment of members of the LGBT community in Gaza. In Israel a LGBT Arab man or women can live openly, join the military and advocate for their community.
The people in Gaza are suffering abuses of their human rights from their own leaders but also from Israel and Egypt. There can be no denying of that. No matter how many Hamas terrorists, there are, there is no doubt that civilian men, women and children are suffering. It's not just Israel's problem and I don't think anyone is saying it is but they are part of the problem and they are part of the solution. They just don't to accept that.
As for LGBT community, yes Israel is to be congratulated but as in all things with regard Israel, they are one big contradiction. I was reading recently their open campaign of 'misery' against Eritrean and Sudanese refugees or as Israel calls them, 'Infiltrators' to make them leave. Government minister referring to them 'Cancer on our body'. Telling them they can't work but then asking for payslips when they go to renew visas. Threatening them with extended retention if they refuse to be relocated to Rwanda or Uganda. Turning a blind eye to racist attacks in African neighbourhoods.
Israel it seems to me sometimes seem to pick and choose what human rights they want to recognise and have ready made excuses for the one's they don't recognise. Gaza is full of terrorists. The refugees are infiltrators. Palestinian citizens of Israel who had houses destroyed were living in illegal houses despite some of them being built before Israel was created while at the same time building illegal settlements themselves. As I said, one big contradiction.
I agree with everything you said Sunny. I started this thread to talk about how Israel gets so much attention but its neighbours, who are far worse, get so little. So far the vast majority of the posts are about Israel and what it does wrong. My first post asked why we ignore what is going on in Turkey, what's going on in Saudi Arabia.
Would there be calls for a boycott of the Eurovision if it was being held in Turkey?
What do we know about how Africans are treated in Saudi?
I'm not excusing Israels behaviour; it is further away from the ideals of a real liberal democracy now than at any point in the last 70 years. I am just questioning why our media refuses to contextualise what it does and why it doesn't report on other countries in the region to the same extent.
Would there be calls for a boycott of the Eurovision if it was being held in Turkey?
What do we know about how Africans are treated in Saudi?
I'm not excusing Israels behaviour; it is further away from the ideals of a real liberal democracy now than at any point in the last 70 years. I am just questioning why our media refuses to contextualise what it does and why it doesn't report on other countries in the region to the same extent.
I do agree with you that the Arab countries get a much easier ride. I wonder is that down to ignorance. How many times are human abuses put down to 'Islam' even though it has nothing to do with religion. It is simply another corrupt evil regime getting rich and powerful on the backs of their citizens. Over here, we seem to shrug our shoulders and say almost go 'that's the Arab's for you'.... With Israel it seems to be a bit different. I don't want to suggest it is because they look more like us that we expect more from them but I think despite all the criticism, Israel is recognised as a valid and valued democracy in the international community. I think it makes it hard for people to reconcile what they think Israel stand for and the pictures on the ground. After all, people just see protestors throwing petrol bombs like a good Saturday night in Belfast getting met by automatic and sniper gunfire. They hear about the homes of Hamas terorrists getting destroyed and children being made homeless. When did the civilised world start punishing children for the sins of their fathers? But there is a very valid point to be made that the suffering of ordinary Israeli's is not covered to the same extent.
I don't know the answer to be honest. I am torn with regards to Israel but that is probably the wrong phrase. I have great sympathy for it and situation it finds itself in trying to protect itself and living in fear but at the same time I just want to scream at them to stop being so stupid and stubborn. What they have been doing is not working to maybe its time to do something different. Even talking to ordinary Israeli's can be challenging at times. They just seem so defensive and paranoid all of the time. Having said that, I have never been there so I could be just one of those ignorant foreigners spouting rubbish from the safety of Dublin.
I know the US has to back them and that it has to be unconditional military support. 100% agree that if Israel is attacked, the US has every right to defend it. But I sometimes wonder if the reluctance of the US to even slightly criticise Israel or hold them to account even through pointless UN security council resolutions really helps them in the long run. Or the US for that matter. Like, what the consequences of the US not vetoing a resolution condemning Israel? It's a pointless piece of paper so what does it matter...At least then, the US might be seen as honest brokers to some extent in a peace process because unfortunately they are the only ones who can do it.
TheBigShort
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I don't think it is fair to say we 'ignore' what is occurring in Turkey and SA. As pointed out to you there is ample reporting on issues arising in those countries. I would suggest that the ignorance is probably at the political level rather than at media level.
In the same topic that the (non-existent) rights of LGBT in Arab countries was raised, the rights of medical personnel to go about their business of treating the injured is almost completely ignored.
I find this hard to agree with. The Palestinian/Israeli conflict is currently dominating media because of events occurring there.
Syria has dominated for the last 7yrs.
The other point is what influence does Western media and reporting have on the state policies of Arab countries? I would say very little. So we can protest all we want about LGBT rights in Palestine, SA, Iran or Qatar or wherever...unless it puts political pressure on those governments then it just goes by the wayside.
Im looking at RTE, Irish Times, Irish Independent websites today. I cannot even find a mention of the killing of medical personnel in Gaza...its as if it was yesterday's news!
The shooting dead of medical personnel is a breach of Geneva convention.
No editorials, no comment. I guess...no pressure so? Where is the supposed bias against Israel? Where is the holding of Israel to a higher standard today, or yesterday?
It simply is not there.
I would disagree. Haven't you heard of Gadaffi, "The Butchers of Bagdad", "Animal Assad"? These are all countries in which Western powers have toppled or tried to topple, precisely because of what they do.
Anyone following events in the Middle East will know that Iran is now also being targeted for economic sanctions...what economic sanctions are there against Israel?
Perhaps the perceived bias in reporting against Israel stems from the fact that Israel is never held to account for anything it does.
None of those were toppled for what they did. Many were carrying out atrocities for years with implicit and explicit western support. They didn't get all their weapons from the evil Russians. Only reason they were toppled is that the US attitude to the Middle East changed after 9/11 and society changes.
Iran had sanctions imposed for years yet still threatened Israel with nuclear destruction while working towards creating nuclear weapons. Even when sanctions were removed after the nuclear deal, look how many western countries were piling into Iran despite no regime change and despite horrendous human rights record. The reason why there is such acrimony towards Trump's decision is the lost business that the deal brought. Not because people thought it was a great deal. Trump is right. It is a poor deal but it was probably the best deal that could have been got at the time.
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Are you seriously suggesting that they were overthrown because of how they treated their own people?
Again, is that because of how they treat their people or is it because they are in a cold war with Saudi Arabia and the Saudis underwrite the US Dollar as their world's reserve currency?
How do you square that with this?;
Relative to Saudi Arabia Iran is a bastion of freedom, tolerance and peacefulness.
Wouldn't argue with that.
TheBigShort
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We can get bogged down into what were the "real reasons" as to why any country was invaded or overthrown. Whether it was WMD, links to Al'Qaeda and 9/11, the petro-dollar and oil supplies, gassing its own people or being capable of striking the UK in 45 mins, it doesn't matter.
What matters is that those regimes, and others, were/are and being held to account through economic sanctions, military strikes, outright invasions.
Israel is not held to account for its atrocities or breaches of UN resolutions etc.
Palestinians endure what I have often heard described as horrendous conditions in an effective open air prison for the actions of Hamas against Israel.
Israel suffers no economic sanctions, and is not held to a higher standard by anyone, let alone Irish media.
That would be true if they were being replaced with better governments, or any governments. It would be true if "we" were backing the side which was less abusive. It would be true if the most abusive country of all, which is also the biggest sponsor of terrorism, received any sanctions at all. Instead there are thousands of US Marines and a carrier battle fleet there protecting the absolute monarchy which rules it.
TheBigShort
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I dont dispute that. There appears to be a correlation between the political and media treatment of Middle East regimes that chime with Western (or rather US) interests and those that dont.
The Fox News type pro-Israeli media don't report on the bad things that Israel do and vilify the other side and the Guardian type "liberal" media seem to do the opposite. We don't have the equivalent of the Fox News type media here.
TheBigShort
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Thank God for that. I can only assume there is little appetite for it.
I disagree with your opposite analogy, albeit this is just my perception - if Hamas had targeted and killed an Israeli volunteer medic, a Fox news type media would be outraged and baying for revenge.
Other than the reporting of the events of that tragedy, I dont see any editorials, commentary in the Irish media condemning Israel or seeking revenge, do you?
We can agree on that!
I did see something on RTE about it but no editorials.
Anyway, the point of the thread wasn't that there was anti-Israeli coverage but rather that there's wasn't the same level of criticism of other countries in the region who are far worse.
I see the leader of the British Labour Party, Mr. Corbyn, is getting in trouble because he placed a wreath at a monument commemorating the PLO terrorists who murdered the Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics.
Our president has frequently supported the same organisation as well at oppressive totalitarian dictatorships who have murdered tens of thousands of their own people and trained terrorists who have murdered people all over the world.
On one side there is a extremist like Marine Le Pen who is rightly criticised for her views. Her counterparts on the left get a free ride; I see no difference in substance between her and someone like Paul Murphy. Why is the media ire here reserved for the extremists on the right when their counterparts on the left are equally unsavoury and dangerous?
Our president has frequently supported the same organisation as well at oppressive totalitarian dictatorships who have murdered tens of thousands of their own people and trained terrorists who have murdered people all over the world.
On one side there is a extremist like Marine Le Pen who is rightly criticised for her views. Her counterparts on the left get a free ride; I see no difference in substance between her and someone like Paul Murphy. Why is the media ire here reserved for the extremists on the right when their counterparts on the left are equally unsavoury and dangerous?
You can't be serious
At a time when he and his party stand accused of anti-semitism!
Because the majority of the media are left wing themselves