Household Charge

[The_Banker]

Do you think we can borrow our way out of a recession?
We have the worst exchequer deficit in the developed world. Even if we can get growth to 3% (which would be next to impossible) we’d still have to cut spending by €3-€5 billion a year for the next 4-5 years just to reduce our deficit to a manageable amount. Add to that the fact that we need to come up with €7 billion a year just to pay the interest on what we’ve already borrowed.
We could always tell everyone to get stuffed and not repay anything but then we’ve have to borrow €20 billion a year at 12-15%, there’d be a massive outflow of capital from the country (bigger than the one we have already) and our banks would collapse again. In other words we have no choice but to do what we are doing. The dye was cast between 2001 and 2007. Everything that came after was almost inevitable.

Bottom line; our wealth and resulting lifestyles for the last 15 years were an illusion, funded by money that we didn’t have. We’re on the long hard road back to reality. More taxes, less money, more poverty, fewer services, bigger classes in schools, more people dying because of inefficiencies and misallocation of resources in the healthcare system etc.

Hard to argue with anything you say but it further copper fastens my belief that we as a country are a failed entity.

 

[blueband]

You're going to have a lot of pain coming down the line so. They'll find a way to get you. I don't like it any more than you do

i will take my chances in court, if i have to do a few weeks inside i will.
anyone that cant see that this is just the thin end of the wedge is living in dreamland!

 

[Leo]

i will take my chances in court, if i have to do a few weeks inside i will.
anyone that cant see that this is just the thin end of the wedge is living in dreamland!

How much is the conviction and few weeks inside going to cost?

 

[DerKaiser]

i will take my chances in court, if i have to do a few weeks inside i will.
anyone that cant see that this is just the thin end of the wedge is living in dreamland!

It is the thin end of the wedge, it's in the public domain that the charge is likely to be much higher in 2013. I still do not fully understand what people hope to achieve by not paying it though.

Maybe 10 people who don't intend paying it could answer the following questions:

1) Can you afford to pay it?
2) Would your preference be to replace it with
a) more borrowing?
b) other taxes (specify)?
c) spending cuts?
d) all of the above?
3) Are you happy to pay the fine or will you either go to jail or have the money taken directly from your wage/social welfare under new legislation?
4) Are there any existing taxes you feel equally strongly against?

 

[so-crates]

Blueband, Thin end of what wedge? None of this is in any way surprising or unexpected and the rated charge when it comes in will likely be higher. So I am anticipating and planning for that because unlike you I can't believe it has taken this long for us to finally face up to the fact that we are not paying enough. It is the norm abroad to pay local domestic taxation of some form or another, we are unusual in the system of the government central funding being used for this. We are taxed less than other countries and as this crisis has proven, our tax basis is narrow, broadening the taxation basis and charging for services only brings us into line with other countries. We have been fooling ourselves due to a glut of cash that slugged its way through our economy and is now falling out the bottom. By all means play Don Quixote, just don't expect an enormous well of public support, most will grumble, it isn't pleasant but nor are a lot of necessary things, but few will be inclined to tilt at windmills.

 

[The_Banker]

Will I pay it? Yes… I am a tax payer and it is my duty. But I don’t like it.

But I might be a lot happier if I thought the money would be going to help the country rather than down the black hole that is the economic wasteland that this country is.

 

[ninsaga]

Will I pay it? Yes… I am a tax payer and it is my duty. But I don’t like it.

But I might be a lot happier if I thought the money would be going to help the country rather than down the black hole that is the economic wasteland that this country is.

..and there you have it summed up nicely..... pay it because we are told to even though there is no insight as to what it will fix..... we've have the universal social charge flung on us, now this until they come up with another tax type. What's to say that in 8 months time they announce that they got it wrong - missed expected tax revenues by a few billion and need to have another tough budget....

I've over the last few years did a self build and paid massive money on stamp duty - just like many others... this is another kick in the teeth - not to mind the Planning Authority 'contributions' that they commanded also.

 

[so-crates]

It is pretty specific. Additional tax to plug a gigantic hole in the budget. Instead of exchequer funds going to local government this will be to cover that while we use the tax take to service the interest bill on the stupendous loans we as a country took out.

 

[csirl]

In the case of rented properties, why is the charge levied on the owner rather than the occupier? Its supposed to be a local authority charge paid by the people who live in the local authority and avail of the local services - it should user pays as is the case with all other local authority charges.

My understanding is that this will be replace with water charges once metering is in place - does this mean that the property owner rather than the occupier will pay the water charge? This is anti-environment as there will be no incentive on the occupier to save water as they're not paying the bill!

 

[blueband]

Blueband, By all means play Don Quixote, just don't expect an enormous well of public support, most will grumble, it isn't pleasant but nor are a lot of necessary things, but few will be inclined to tilt at windmills.

i wouldn't be so sure of that, its early days yet!
also those who pay the 100euro now, i wonder will they be so happy to pay when it has jumped up to several thousand euro....and it will, have no doubt on that count!

 

[Ceist Beag]

also those who pay the 100euro now, i wonder will they be so happy to pay when it has jumped up to several thousand euro....and it will, have no doubt on that count!

Of course they won't be happy - who said anyone was happy to pay this charge! And most of us realise this will go up over the years - but most of us also accept the reality we are living in. You on the other hand don't seem to have grasped that yet - now what was that you said about someone living in dreamland?

 

[thedaras]

i will take my chances in court, if i have to do a few weeks inside i will.
anyone that cant see that this is just the thin end of the wedge is living in dreamland!

As far as I know, no one will go to prison for not paying this..instead it is likely to be taken at source,ie; social welfare or wages..
Either way, you will end up paying..

 

[blueband]

as i have said im quite happy to take my chances in court, and i dont think i will be alone! time will tell.

 

[so-crates]

i wouldn't be so sure of that, its early days yet!
also those who pay the 100euro now, i wonder will they be so happy to pay when it has jumped up to several thousand euro....and it will, have no doubt on that count!

Can we borrow your crystal ball and use it to bet on the horses? While it will undoubtedly increase, I wonder what information you have that makes you so sure of your numbers?

As CeistBeag has suggested it is perhaps time to leave dreamland, the reckless experiment with centralised funding has failed, the coffee is going to boil over unless we wake up and take it off the heat. Well the rest of us will and will just wait for the legislation to garnish your wages/SW to be enacted. Or alternatively, if you decide to flee the charges in this country you can go and pay them abroad...

 

[blueband]

Can we borrow your crystal ball and use it to bet on the horses? While it will undoubtedly increase, I wonder what information you have that makes you so sure of your numbers?

As CeistBeag has suggested it is perhaps time to leave dreamland, the reckless experiment with centralised funding has failed, the coffee is going to boil over unless we wake up and take it off the heat. Well the rest of us will and will just wait for the legislation to garnish your wages/SW to be enacted. Or alternatively, if you decide to flee the charges in this country you can go and pay them abroad...

so are you saying that this charge is not going to go up in leaps and bounds in the comming years! lets wait and see

 

[blueband]

As far as I know, no one will go to prison for not paying this..instead it is likely to be taken at source,ie; social welfare or wages..
Either way, you will end up paying..

in that case why dont they just take it at source now!.....oh i forgot they want us to 'opt in' you can bet they do!

 

[thedaras]

Would you prefer it that way?
I would guess that like most other things, bin charges/car tax/self employed, etc etc that people are mature enough to pay themselves,however as some choose not to obey the law they will have no choice but to make them pay at source.

 

[so-crates]

so are you saying that this charge is not going to go up in leaps and bounds in the comming years! lets wait and see

At which point have I disputed that it will rise? I asked you what basis you were taking for your putative "several thouand" euro. €100 is a paltry charge, I fully expect it to rise but I have no reference material to achieve the numbers you trot out. As a starting point I have looked at local charges in several other countries but especially the UK as our nearest neighbour and somewhere I have paid council tax, believe you me €100 is definitely a bargain. However even London boroughs are not tipping into "several" thousand pounds.

in that case why dont they just take it at source now!.....oh i forgot they want us to 'opt in' you can bet they do!

They do not currently have the facility to take this at source.

 

[Sunny]

I think most people will agree that the funding of local services needs to change. However, there are still a number of questions. What reform does the Government intend for local authorities. There is a report calling for radical overhaul that they are sitting on. What services should I be expected to pay for. I live in managed estate so already pay for rubbish, street lighting, maintenance etc. I don't use public amenities like libraries or swimming pools. I pay road tax that should pay for upkeep of roads. I don't see why I should have to pay for fire brigade or ambulance out of special tax since I don't have to do it for the guards. Also, it is not just property owners that use emergency services or public amenities so why are we picking up the tab?

I have no problem paying water charges and I will pay this tax but I do have serious issues with it.

 

[dewdrop]

If you dont pay it will be a charge on your property and they will get it with interest in the end though you may not be around!