Hamas attack on Israel

[Blarney]

No I consider my life equal to any other life. Equal!! Not more important or less important.
Hamas are a terrorist organisation so will murder anybody, the Israeli government have shown themselves again and again that they murder innocent people in Gaza so they are no different.

 

[Purple]

No I consider my life equal to any other life. Equal!! Not more important or less important.

Okay, so we are all on the same page with that one. What's that got to do with the use of lethal force by a State in order to protect itself from the lethal force of others? In wars civilians get killed. That's every war ever fought ever. You have stated that the use of lethal force is never justified if innocent lives are lost. By that standard no war is justified.

Hamas are a terrorist organisation so will murder anybody, the Israeli government have shown themselves again and again that they murder innocent people in Gaza so they are no different.

Israel have the capability to defeat Hamas in a few days. They don't do so because they don't want to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people. If the relative power balance was reversed Hamas would kill every Jewish and non-Muslim man woman and child in Israel.
There is no moral equivalence between the two sides. If you think there is then your understanding of history is on par with your understanding of ethics and morality.

 

[Blarney]

How many Hamas fighters have been killed by the Israeli attacks on Gaza? I haven’t seen that number on any news? 1471 Palestinians have been killed, how many of these had anything to do with Hamas attacking Israel?
You are right innocent people get killed in war but what’s see these attacks on Gaza achieving?

 

[Purple]

How many Hamas fighters have been killed by the Israeli attacks on Gaza? I haven’t seen that number on any news? 1471 Palestinians have been killed, how many of these had anything to do with Hamas attacking Israel?
You are right innocent people get killed in war but what’s see these attacks on Gaza achieving?

So do you accept that it is in fact sometimes justifiable to kill innocent civilians in a war as long as they are not the primary target and reasonable efforts have been made to minimise such casualties?

The fact is that Hamas uses the people of Gaza as human shields precisely because the Israelis try to minimise such collateral casualties. That gives Hamas a tactical advantage as it stays the hand of their much more powerful adversary. They are the ones who have no regard for the lives of their own people because they are fundamentalist extremists who have a mandate from God which justifies any action which furthers their aims.

 

[odyssey06]

How many Hamas fighters have been killed by the Israeli attacks on Gaza? I haven’t seen that number on any news? 1471 Palestinians have been killed, how many of these had anything to do with Hamas attacking Israel?
You are right innocent people get killed in war but what’s see these attacks on Gaza achieving?

A major target is destroying underground tunnel network Hamas uses to smuggle in weapons, munitions and rockets etc

 

[odyssey06]

So do you accept that it is in fact sometimes justifiable to kill innocent civilians in a war as long as they are not the primary target and reasonable efforts have been made to minimise such casualties?

The fact is that Hamas uses the people of Gaza as human shields precisely because the Israelis try to minimise such collateral casualties. That gives Hamas a tactical advantage as it stays the hand of their much more powerful adversary. They are the ones who have no regard for the lives of their own people because they are fundamentalist extremists who have a mandate from God which justifies any action which furthers their aims.

Exactly, the civilians in Gaza are victims of Hamas too to a certain extent, although also they enabled them. Similar to the German people and the Nazis.

 

[redstar]

Its a truly terrible situation for Israelis and innocent Palestinians.

The world will be a better place when Hamas and its allies in Islamic Jihad are destroyed. I hope Israel succeeds in that. Hamas are a barrier to any kind of peace in the region, even among their own people.

Destroying Hamas et al will be difficult and will result in civilian casualties as a side-effect, just like D-Day, as mentioned before. But Israel needs to be careful not to lose support due to using Hamas-style inhumane measures.

My main problem with Netanyahus approach, though, is this...
Deliberately targeting civilians by turning off water and food is a war crime, and more befitting sieges of the middle-ages. It is not a military strategy, but one of terror. Collective punishment is illegal internationally. Only vulnerable Palestinians will suffer - Hamas terrorists won't as they will look after themselves first. It actually suits them for Israel to do this because of the effect of seeing children dying of starvation or dehydration which is exactly what they want the world to see.
Its entirely counter-productive for Israel. Even some Israeli media have taken to hammering Netanyahu for his approach, and questions his Govts suitability for office.

The world rightly condemned Russia for destroying the large dam in Kherson, Ukraine as a war-crime, and deliberately destroying a busy train station last year. That same 'world' needs to do the same regarding Israels actions with water and food, and pressure them to relent on this tactic.

The Palestinians and Israelis will need to accommodate each others existence, most likely in a 2 state solution. Hamas/Iran don't want this to succeed, so its in Israels interest to separate the Palestinian people from those who don't want a settlement. Starving them of water won't help.

The real power behind Hamas - Iran and allies, are just sitting back and watching Netanyahu mess this up.

 

[Sunny]

This morning on Moaning Ireland the usual anti-Israeli rhetoric was in full flow. Despite the fact that the EU and the Irish State recognises Hamas as terrorists, and despite their actions in recent weeks and since they were founded, RTE will still not refer to them as terrorists. To RTE the act of murdering a baby, gang raping a young woman or beheading an unarmed civilian makes you a 'fighter'.

To be fair, the BBC do the same. Argument being referring to one side as terrorist makes it sound like it is a simple case of one good side and one bad side. Cutting water, electricity and food off from a civilian population while closing all aid or evacuation corridors could be argued as state terrorism. Collective punishment is not right under any circumstances. If as Israel claim its a war, then its a war with two sides.

Having said all that, I agree that Hamas are a terrorist organisation and what they did was pure terrorism. Would have no issue with it being reported as such.

Once again though, we face a reality where this is only going to be solved when one side wipes out the other. Israel will go in on the ground with a scorched earth policy and more than likely carry out atrocities against civilians like every other time. And saying that's not right is not the same as saying Israel don't have the right to defend themselves. They will only stop when the US and international community can't stand over the pictures and stories anymore. It's a never ending circle.

Hamas need to be taken out of power and influence in Gaza. They need to become irrelevant. And the Palestinian people need to that themselves. Israel won't achieve that by creating 'martyrs' like they do every single time through matching indiscriminate violence with indiscriminate violence. Its time for United Nations to finally do something constructive and deal with it once and for all.

As for Israel and democracy. They have been skirting that line for awhile now and I dread to think what it would become without a free press and a conscientious population. It shows how thick Hamas are that they have managed to unite the Country against them. Pure stupidity.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Why did Hamas decide to attack now and with such ferocity and brutality?

Where did they get the weapons?

It has certainly distracted attention from Ukraine.

 

[odyssey06]

Why did Hamas decide to attack now and with such ferocity and brutality?

Where did they get the weapons?

It has certainly distracted attention from Ukraine.

The weapons - through Egypt but sourced from Iran and perhaps Russia. Or some sort of quid pro quo between Russia and Iran for Iran to supply weapons to Hamas and Russia will supply weaponry or schematics to Iran.

Russian angle would be to distract focus from Ukraine as well as possibly weaponry.

Smuggled in via underground tunnels linking Gaza Strip and Egypt.

Palestinian tunnel warfare in the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I've seen reports and photographs showing Hamas as having dismantled water pipes funded by aid projects to build the tunnels.

Israel’s intelligence community believes much of the money and material the world gave to the people of Gaza to rebuild after previous wars has been taken by Hamas and reinvested in the elaborate system of tunnels and bunkers.

'We know they're waiting for us': Gaza's tunnels pose deadly challenge for Israeli troops

The Gaza Strip is one of the mostly densely populated areas in the world. Its underground tunnel system is full of other dangers.

www.cnbc.com

 

[Sophrosyne]

Oh I agree @odyssey06.

But what's in it for Hamas - given that it is not obliteration?

They surely knew what the Israeli and US reaction would be to such savage provocation.

 

[odyssey06]

Oh I agree @odyssey06.

But what's in it for Hamas - given that it is not obliteration?

They surely knew what the Israeli and US reaction would be to such savage provocation.

It's hard to know.

They don't show any concern whatsoever for trying to protect their own citizens. They see them as human shields or else possible recruits.

Entirely possible they don't care how many casualties they suffer as long as first they have killed as many 'infidels' (and more than just Israeli Jews were killed but Hindus, Muslim rescue workers, Christians) as they can, without regard to what comes next. Consumed by the hatred of their death cult.

The next step is killing as many Israeli soldiers as they can when ground forces are committed into an urban battleground they have prepared.

Or like 1916, they know they will be defeated initially but think Israel's reaction will be counter productive in the long run even if largely militarily successful in the short term ala 1916.

 

[Purple]

Oh I agree @odyssey06.

But what's in it for Hamas - given that it is not obliteration?

They surely knew what the Israeli and US reaction would be to such savage provocation.

The further destabilisation of the political system in Gaza and the West Bank suits Hamas.

Hamas's paymasters in Iran want the broader damage the war will do to the relationship between Israel and Saudi, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE and Jordan.

Iran's ally Russia want to distract it's enemies in the West from the war in Ukraine and see the diversion of military and financial supports to Israel and away from Ukraine.

War in the Middle East also causes Oil and Gas prices to increase, further helping Russia's flow of hard currency from China.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Yes @odyssey06, there seems to be a kamikaze recklessness to their plans.

 

[Leper]

Israeli Intelligence was somehow outfoxed by Hamas for once and the attack on Gaza was successful inasmuch as not only has it woken up the Arab World, but indeed the whole world. Their thinking that Israeli wouldn’t react is folly and the Israelis are responding more forcefully than anybody expected.

Think back to the Six Day War and the Yom Kippur War and you’ll find that Israel was never a nation to turn the other cheek. They have bee subdued for thousands of years and finally regained a homeland 75 years ago. They are fighting tooth and nail for their survival and they are organised and have only the one goal and somehow always come out on top.

If I were a Hamas Fighter being shielded in Gaza, I’d be very afraid. The rest of the world can huff and puff, but the Israelis will not stop in Gaza. Hamas has done untold damage to its own people. The sooner the rest of the world accepts this and Saudi Arabia gets involved in some sort of peace process, the sooner this particular conflict will end.

The problem is many more innocent lives will be lost.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Their thinking that Israeli wouldn’t react is folly and the Israelis are responding more forcefully than anybody expected.

Well exactly @Leper.

Add to that the fact that Palestine has no real allies in the Arab world. See this.

But then, the Middle East has never really been united - too many authoritarian regimes each with its own political and economic issues.

The Hamas goal is based on either self-delusion or self-destruction.

The welfare of Palestinian civilians has never been its motivation.

 

[Sunny]

Hamas knew exactly what the reaction of Israel would be. They don't care. They don't care how many Palestinian or Israeli people die. Hamas are typical terrorist crowds.
The problem is that Israel and the US are giving them exactly what they want. Same as every other time. For the next week, we are going to be bombarded with pictures of dead Palestinian women and children. That's going to be the story.
Israel should have killed every single terrorist on their territory. They should secure their border. And they should have taken a breath. They shouldn't start referring to Palestinians as animals, cutting off electricity water and food. They shouldn't use the word siege. They shouldn't give 1m people 24 hours to move into area of a small Irish village. They shouldn't send an army into destroy a civilian area. But they have and so it goes again.
Israel get their vengeance but do nothing for their future security. 1000s of Palestinians die while the rest continue to live in inhumane conditions.
We will then have a number of years of small battles and flashpoints until the next large uprising. Then we repeat again. It's all just depressing.

If there is anything to laugh about, I thought Putin warning how dangerous sending military vehicles into civilian areas is as no way to avoid civilian casualties was something. Reading that has made me realise the world is being led by nutjobs!

 

[Purple]

The tragedy of all of this is that they were so close to a solution after the Camp David agreement.
The dysfunction and endemic corruption of Arafat and his cronies drove the people of Gaza towards the fundamentalist terrorists in Hamas and Hamas shot and murdered themselves the rest of the way into power.
Hamas would rather burn their own house down, with all their people in it, than see the Zionist house next door flourish.

Israel has behaved appallingly and will continue to do so, fuelled by a belief that their God gave them the right to be right no matter what, but there will be no peace in the region as long as Hamas exist.

 

[Sophrosyne]

And when Hamas is defeated another radical branch of the Muslim brotherhood will emerge.

Any solution for peaceful co-existence should come from the Middle East, but it will not. They talk peace but talking is cheap.

So, the US or the UN will once again pick up the pieces and will be condemned for interfering.

 

[odyssey06]

And when Hamas is defeated another radical branch of the Muslim brotherhood will emerge.

Any solution for peaceful co-existence should come from the Middle East, but it will not. They talk peace but talking is cheap.

So, the US or the UN will once again pick up the pieces and will be condemned for interfering.

Israel (and the international community) needs to find some way to bolster moderate opinion. On Israel there is concessions on settlers, and their stranglehold on the West Bank. But is there any peacekeeping force that both Israel and Palestinians could trust to (a) protect Palestinians but (b) ensuring Israel cannot come under attack.

And it may well take moderate Palestinians fighting against the extremists ala 1922.

But I don't know if that is in the realms of the possible.