Garda pay

[michaelm]

On what basis are you stating that crime is rife? The perception that it is is certainly out there, fuelled by media reports that have little basis in fact and have more to do with making us afraid.

Murder is down, sex crimes are up. Everything else is about the same. ([broken link removed])

Yes, the media hype everything. Admittedly not scientific, however, burglary is out of hand, I know so many people who have been broken into. I've owned 5 cars over 23 years and every one has suffered criminal damage. That reported/recorded crime is 'about the same' isn't much consolation to those affected by it. The figures are far too high.

It [inflation] was 35.9% ([broken link removed])

Whatever, from Jan 2000 to Dec 2008 it was 38.2%. If you're going to bandy about percentages for average wage increases you should acknowledge that inflation was tipping along also.

 

[Purple]

Whatever, from Jan 2000 to Dec 2008 it was 38.2%. If you're going to bandy about percentages for average wage increases you should acknowledge that inflation was tipping along also.

Yea, I did.

 

[Vanessa]

Are you suggesting that they should reduce their pension entitlement so that they get paid more at the start of their career?

Im sure pension conditions could be changed but unlikely for those already on pension. Not being ageist but what good is a 60 year old guard on the streage.There cant be office jobs for everyone at that age.

 

[Vanessa]

The position with nurses is that if we dont pay them properly they have no problem getting better terms in the UK etc. I know nurses who go to England and do 14 days in a row, stay in hospital accommodation andthen are free to return to Ireland or do agency work to earn additional income

 

[Purple]

The position with nurses is that if we dont pay them properly they have no problem getting better terms in the UK etc. I know nurses who go to England and do 14 days in a row, stay in hospital accommodation and then are free to return to Ireland or do agency work to earn additional income

Fair play to them for working so hard.
I agree that we have to pay the market rate. With the exchange rate what it is the UK is less attractive though.

 

[moneybox]

The position with nurses is that if we dont pay them properly they have no problem getting better terms in the UK etc. I know nurses who go to England and do 14 days in a row, stay in hospital accommodation andthen are free to return to Ireland or do agency work to earn additional income

I have no idea where you getting this from, I had a niece nursing in London, hospital accommodation cost her a staggering £600 a month for a miserable tiny room with damp and insects crawling along the walls. They don't have better terms, staff shortages are chronic and agency work rates has recently been severely cut back. There was no way she could have worked 14 days in a row and then return to Ireland to do agency work. She left and is now working in America.

In addition, nurses earn far less in UK than in Ireland, they start off at around £23,000 and taking recent exchange rate drop into account, it is likely they will be far less incentive for Irish nurses to go over there.

 

[Vanessa]

If your niece decides to rent that standard of accommodation then so be it. I know many young Irish nurses in the London area who are in decent accommodation, sharing houses etc.
None of them have been attracted by the HSEs efforts to recruit them. You will notice I said "or".
I never posted that they went back to Ireland to do agency work. I dont believe that you are familiar with the wage structure, working hours and training opportunities being offered in the UK to be in a position to give a proper comparison between the UK and Ireland

 

[moneybox]

If your niece decides to rent that standard of accommodation then so be it. I know many young Irish nurses in the London area who are in decent accommodation, sharing houses etc.
None of them have been attracted by the HSEs efforts to recruit them. You will notice I said "or".
I never posted that they went back to Ireland to do agency work. I dont believe that you are familiar with the wage structure, working hours and training opportunities being offered in the UK to be in a position to give a proper comparison between the UK and Ireland

She was in what they call 'key workers' accommodation not very nice at all.

As for the wage structure here is the evidence
https://www.rcn.org.uk/employment-and-pay/nhs-pay-scales-2016-17

 

[Purple]

She was in what they call 'key workers' accommodation not very nice at all.

As for the wage structure here is the evidence
https://www.rcn.org.uk/employment-and-pay/nhs-pay-scales-2016-17

Now now Moneybox, don't be bringing facts into it. Nurses are Front Line Staff, sorry, "wurkers", and so should be paid more despite the fact that its a vocation and they are utterly selfless, every one of them is extremely hard working, every one of them is brilliant at their job (yes, they are all above average ).
Maybe they should be paid more but maybe the whole structure needs to change so that their job is less stressful and they are more productive.

 

[Firefly]

Nurses are Front Line Staff

It's funny how nurses, teachers and gardai are always the ones trotted out by the unions when it comes to wage demands. I don't have the numbers, but being generous, I would put them as 20% of the public sector. You never hear about the other 80%..

 

[Delboy]

100k average pay when the pension is included
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crim...se-pension-benefits-says-pay-report-1.2902538

Any garda who engages in strike action should lose their right to build up their pension entitlements for five years, a major new report on pay and industrial relations in An [broken link removed] has recommended....
...The report says that the average pay for gardaí across the force last year was €63,450.
However it says if the value of the cost of the provision of pensions was taken into account, total remuneration for gardaí would be in excess of €100,000.

Not bad money at all.
And of course the report won't be implemented...another one to gather dust

 

[Purple]

100k average pay when the pension is included
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/striking-gardaí-should-lose-pension-benefits-says-pay-report-1.2902538

Not bad money at all.
And of course the report won't be implemented...another one to gather dust

I'm glad to see someone was reading my posts!

 

[Gerry Canning]

Given the way (NON STATE type) pensions are being hammered and the obvious real today value of a (state) pension , all (public) staff might be advised to shut up for a while !

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Yes Purple Horgan seems to have answered your OP question. €37k average annual accrual of pension.

Retiring at 55 and with long term interest rates at little over 1% I think we can see where this back of a postage stamp figure might come from. Yes that could be the actuarial present value of the cost to the State. But this is a grossly simplistic way to see it from the point of view of the employee.

I presume that the retirement age of 55 comes from the recognition that given the particular nature of garda work they lose effectiveness much earlier than in other careers. I think we can also assume that at age 55 the possibilities for alternative work are limited. So in choosing a career as a garda one is accepting that you will only be economically active until age 55. It is therefore entirely appropriate that exceptional pension arrangements be in place to make the career attractive.

Put another way, in contemplating her career, a prospective garda recruit will of course value the early pension but they will also see it as a necessary compensation for having a substantially reduced period of economic usefulness. Their representatives would be right to completely dismiss this headline figure as being misleading. They will have to start arguing that the loss of economic utility from age 55 needs to be deducted in any benchmarking. It's a tough ask.

 

[Delboy]

From my understanding, a lot of the Security companies actively seek retired Gardai as advisers/managers. The big supermarkets too.
And of course they can serve until 60 if they so wish.

They they also have their property letting business to fall back on and give 100% of their time

 

[Dan Murray]

It is difficult to place a value on these benefits. I have, however, made some estimates of their value based on the cost of those benefits in 2015.

In 2015, the cost of the Superannuation scheme was €311m (in terms of pensions paid out) - of which €36m was contributed by the 12,800 active members of the scheme. This represents less than 12% of the cost. If all members had to pay the full cost they would have had to contribute an additional €275m or €21.5k each. To fund this in after-tax income they would have to have been paid an additional €40k approximately. This is equivalent to an additional 80% of pay approximately. This would bring total remuneration of the average Garda to the equivalent of in excess of €100k before tax. (Please note that there is no actual "fund" here.)

 

[Firefly]

I presume that the retirement age of 55 comes from the recognition that given the particular nature of garda work they lose effectiveness much earlier than in other careers.

We constantly hear about home some areas of the PS are under-resourced, surely a Garda aged 55 could be reallocated to admin departments though and help out?

 

[Purple]

Yes Purple Horgan seems to have answered your OP question. €37k average annual accrual of pension.

Dan gives the full breakdown.

Retiring at 55 and with long term interest rates at little over 1% I think we can see where this back of a postage stamp figure might come from. Yes that could be the actuarial present value of the cost to the State. But this is a grossly simplistic way to see it from the point of view of the employee.

It's factually accurate. I don't see how it's simplistic though.

I presume that the retirement age of 55 comes from the recognition that given the particular nature of garda work they lose effectiveness much earlier than in other careers. I think we can also assume that at age 55 the possibilities for alternative work are limited. So in choosing a career as a garda one is accepting that you will only be economically active until age 55. It is therefore entirely appropriate that exceptional pension arrangements be in place to make the career attractive.

There's no Garda in Ireland who won't be able to get a job when he or she retires. I know quite a few of them.

Put another way, in contemplating her career, a prospective garda recruit will of course value the early pension but they will also see it as a necessary compensation for having a substantially reduced period of economic usefulness. Their representatives would be right to completely dismiss this headline figure as being misleading. They will have to start arguing that the loss of economic utility from age 55 needs to be deducted in any benchmarking. It's a tough ask.

They can get a job if they want or they can work on until they are 60 or they can take their tax free lump sum, which averages over €100,000, and clear the remainder of their mortgage and live in "Frugal Comfort" on their €33'000 a year average pension.
If I had €500 a week now after paying my mortgage/rent I'd be delighted.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Firefly we should avoid the error of thinking that €33K pension is a cost but continuing to pay €60K to push pens would not be a cost.

Dan I think you are wrong to "gross up". Those pensions are subject to tax, that's why folk get tax relief on pension contributions. There is a big difference between €21K and €40K though ironically the €40K seems closer to the correct actuarial figure.

Purple it is factually correct that most people die in bed but it would be too simplistic to regard being in bed as dangerous. Similarly the actuarial cost of Garda pensions is indeed fact but it is overly simplistic to use this figure unadjusted in benchmarking against other careers. I thought I had explained that - but if you think you have me on a "gotcha" your welcome.

 

[Dan Murray]

Dan I think you are wrong to "gross up". Those pensions are subject to tax, that's why folk get tax relief on pension contributions. There is a big difference between €21K and €40K though ironically the €40K seems closer to the correct actuarial figure.

My dear Duke,

I note that you are having some difficulty with the tax treatment of pension contributions contained in my post last night or, to be really technical, earlier today! So, please allow me to elaborate a little further....

Another way of estimating the value is to ask what contribution would be required of a person aged 20 who wishes to fund a pension of €25k payable at age 50. According to the Pensions Authority Calculator that person would be required to pay in the order of €30k p.a., or 50% of earnings each year to achieve this goal.