Gaming the System

[TheBigShort]

Firstly, they are not high-earners. Secondly, they tend to be school teachers and the like on long-term secondments and full of glee at earning €100,000 a year. As for the civil servants, with some exceptions, they tend to be utter dross who wouldn’t last 10 minutes in the private sector. Many of this country’s financial woes would be solved by sending half of its public servants to the firing squad.

It doesnt really matter what you think of anyone, anymore than what they think of you. My point is, everyone can feel aggrieved if they want to. Simply having contributed more money in taxes doesnt give any additional entitlement over anyone else.

You may feel they should have that additional entitlement, I feel they dont have that additional entitlement and there is nothing that actually gives them that additional entitlement.

 

[gnf_ireland]

I've been told my a consultant's secretary that he only takes cash. There is only one reason why someone only takes cash. I received a hand written receipt with no serial number.

Now that you mention it, I had a similar issue with a consultant by daughter went to in that they only accepted cash or cheque and not card payments. They did not have a card machine, which I find strange given you can effectively run one over your phone at the moment. I did get a proper receipt generated from a computer system with invoice number etc listed. I submitted it for health insurance return without an issue.

Surely after the national contractor project, hospital consultants would be slow to engage in such blatant 'questionable' activities as non-serialised handwritten receipts?

I am aware of other countries which have legal requirements on all companies and sole traders to provide explanations around gaps in invoice numbers. Its a proper pain for IT system development I can assure you

 

[TheBigShort]

Just to take at the concept of 'Gaming the System' from a different perspective.

In the week that we saw justice being served for the biggest financial fraud in this country, it struck me that it was preceded by the tax settlement of some €18m by one of worlds iconic sports stars.
It wasn't that long ago that his fellow professional, Messi, was found guilty of €4.5m fraud.
Other footballers such as Alexis Sanchez, Ramadal Falcao and Luka Modric have also ended up with substantial fines/settlements in the €millions for tax evasion.
And while it may be a culture amongst some professional footballers, it is somewhat irksome to know as they continue to perform on the big stage of the World Cup, that the tournament organisers FIFA are under investigation for all sorts of financial irregularities too.

To top it off, the tournament is being hosted by a country that some would say, is synonymous with financial and political corruption.

Over the last decade or two we have had the Apple Tax judgement, Goldman Sachs and Greek Euro entry debacle, Panama Papers, Lehman collapse and literally dozens of global financial institutions involved in bare-faced criminality involving €bns.

In the meantime, im dug into the trenches in another topic to do with the housing crisis trying to point out that the poorest in our society are not all gaming the system. Of those that are, it pales into near absolute insignificance to white collar financial and tax fraud that is occurring globally.
I note that when I commented on the housing crisis highlighting that it is a problem occuring across Western societies, the focus was immediately deflected back onto social and local authority tenants of this country!

So when it comes to 'gaming the system' why is so much more attention and energy focused on those who actually game the system least, and relatively little attention in comparison, is focused on those who game the system most?

Im minded of a line from the movie of my username when Wall St was plummeted in 2008

- " I have a feeling in a few years people are going to be doing what they always do when the economy tanks. They will be blaming immigrants and poor people."

Since then;

Brexit (immigration) , Trump (immigration), European refugee crisis, unemployed, social and local authority tenants, low-income earners (they dont pay their fair share of tax! ) etc are all disproportionately on the receiving end of invective exaggerations of the problems they cause to our societies and economies.

All the while the Anglo chiefs, Sepp Blatters, Sam Alderdyces, Ronaldos etc are caught and held out for a finger pointing and shaming to various degrees.
But no-one it appears to me, stops to challenge the collective system that allows white collar crime prevail, as it does, at such gargantuan levels.

 

[RETIRED2017]

Just to take at the concept of 'Gaming the System' from a different perspective.

In the week that we saw justice being served for the biggest financial fraud in this country, it struck me that it was preceded by the tax settlement of some €18m by one of worlds iconic sports stars.
It wasn't that long ago that his fellow professional, Messi, was found guilty of €4.5m fraud.
Other footballers such as Alexis Sanchez, Ramadal Falcao and Luka Modric have also ended up with substantial fines/settlements in the €millions for tax evasion.
And while it may be a culture amongst some professional footballers, it is somewhat irksome to know as they continue to perform on the big stage of the World Cup, that the tournament organisers FIFA are under investigation for all sorts of financial irregularities too.

To top it off, the tournament is being hosted by a country that some would say, is synonymous with financial and political corruption.

Over the last decade or two we have had the Apple Tax judgement, Goldman Sachs and Greek Euro entry debacle, Panama Papers, Lehman collapse and literally dozens of global financial institutions involved in bare-faced criminality involving €bns.

In the meantime, im dug into the trenches in another topic to do with the housing crisis trying to point out that the poorest in our society are not all gaming the system. Of those that are, it pales into near absolute insignificance to white collar financial and tax fraud that is occurring globally.
I note that when I commented on the housing crisis highlighting that it is a problem occuring across Western societies, the focus was immediately deflected back onto social and local authority tenants of this country!

So when it comes to 'gaming the system' why is so much more attention and energy focused on those who actually game the system least, and relatively little attention in comparison, is focused on those who game the system most?

Im minded of a line from the movie of my username when Wall St was plummeted in 2008

- " I have a feeling in a few years people are going to be doing what they always do when the economy tanks. They will be blaming immigrants and poor people."

Since then;

Brexit (immigration) , Trump (immigration), European refugee crisis, unemployed, social and local authority tenants, low-income earners (they dont pay their fair share of tax! ) etc are all disproportionately on the receiving end of invective exaggerations of the problems they cause to our societies and economies.

All the while the Anglo chiefs, Sepp Blatters, Sam Alderdyces, Ronaldos etc are caught and held out for a finger pointing and shaming to various degrees.
But no-one it appears to me, stops to challenge the collective system that allows white collar crime prevail, as it does, at such gargantuan levels.

the fear they gravy train will come off the rails,Others fear there will be no more crums falling off the table,
Most fear they will have to pay there fair share and a few others smart but not smart enough to notice the people close to them who do not pay there fair share meaning there will be nothing left for them when there time comes who follow the people who are doing everything the possibly can not to pay there fair share

So the smart but not so smart d'ont notice why they will have to pay more because of the special treatment given to vested and well connected lobby groups before the chickens started to come home to roost,

 

[cremeegg]

the big stage of the World Cup, that the tournament organisers FIFA are under investigation for all sorts of financial irregularities too.

Without FIFA there would be no world cup. While that wouldn't bother me much, you seem to be enjoying it. What would we loose if Joe Bloggs stopped fraudulently claiming the dole.

Without Anglo my house and approximately 15% of all the houses in the country would never have been built.

Over the last decade or two we have had the Apple Tax judgement, Goldman Sachs and Greek Euro entry debacle, Panama Papers, Lehman collapse and literally dozens of global financial institutions involved in bare-faced criminality involving €bns.

Equating the Apple tax issue with the Panama Papers issue suggests that you understand neither.

 

[TheBigShort]

Without FIFA there would be no world cup. While that wouldn't bother me much, you seem to be enjoying it.

Ok, so before I get accused of diversion and deflection, or 'rabbit holes'
Here is my definition of 'gaming the system'

"Fixing, setting or using the rules and procedures to manipulate or extract an unfair, undue or unintended outcome or reward in favour of one or more parties over others".
- im sure this can be amended, adjusted etc and that others have different definitions, but I would consider that they wouldn't be a million miles from the above?

So in the context of 'gaming the system', it is clear to me that the Panama Papers revealed some apparent systems of tax evasion for certain parties (typically very rich parties) that would not, in the ordinary course of affairs be available to most other parties (typically, not rich parties).

Apple Tax - the EU Commission says Ireland granted undue tax benefits of up to €13bn to Apple.

I think both affairs would plausibly fall under the definition above of 'Gaming the System' , notwithstanding of course the Irish governments on-going appeal against that decision.

I am of course open to discuss any apparent flaw in what I have posted.

 

[cremeegg]

Apple makes its money by selling shiny technology to the public. It is not involved in selling drugs, or people trafficking or any such activity. I am not sure the same can be said for the clients of Mossack Fonseca.

Offshore companies are legal, said Panamanian lawyer and former controller of the republic Alvin Weeden; illegality arises when they are used for money laundering, arms smuggling, terrorism, or tax evasion.

Apple conducted it tax affairs with the full knowledge of the tax authorities in Spain, Ireland and the US. I am not sure the same can be said for the clients of Mossack Fonseca.

To equate the two seems unreasonable to me.

 

[TheBigShort]

To equate the two seems unreasonable to me

Absolutely, in terms of their respective activities to game the system, they are worlds apart.
And just to be clear, my previous comment is not about the World Cup and whether I enjoy it or not, its not about Irish housing stock, Apple iphones and iPads, nor is it about drug-dealing, human trafficking etc

The point being made is that at all walks of life, from those on welfare benefits, working with cash, those auditing, accounting, policing, administrating, policy making etc etc, there are elements of people within all systems who will try to manipulate or extract unfair advantage or reward, by way of using or fixing the system to suit their own ends.

To me, (and this is just opinion) there is a tendency for society, law makers, commentators to focus disproportionately on those who are extracting least advantage from the respective systems that they are gaming , over those who are extracting the most advantage from their respective systems.

 

[Purple]

The point being made is that at all walks of life, from those on welfare benefits, working with cash, those auditing, accounting, policing, administrating, policy making etc etc, there are elements of people within all systems who will try to manipulate or extract unfair advantage or reward, by way of using or fixing the system to suit their own ends.

True. It is all wrong and shopuld all be challenged. I think you'll find I have been critical of all vested interest groups and have previously made the same general points you make above.

To me, (and this is just opinion) there is a tendency for society, law makers, commentators to focus disproportionately on those who are extracting least advantage from the respective systems that they are gaming , over those who are extracting the most advantage from their respective systems.

You have to ask yourself what "most Advantage" means. Someone working in the black economy who is paying no income tax and getting dole is evading 100% of their tax liability and stealing. A Medical Consultant who demands cash only is paying lots of tax but evading lots more. A billionaire who funnels their income through an offshore business in a fraudulent manner is evading lots of tax but paying lots more. It's the same crime but some have a greater opportunity to "sin". I wouldn't be trying to devise a scale of moral fecklessness just because some people are better at being corrupt than others.

As for FIFA... they are a disgrace.

 

[Purple]

Gaming the system is the main reason why we pay pay high taxes in this Country ,

I disagree with that. Waste, a very narrow tax base and unrealistic expectations of what the State can and should do is, in my opinion, the main reason a small cohort of people pay high taxes.
We hire Public Servants as administrators, and they are good at that, and then we promote them to be managers without training them properly or ensuring their have the correct attributes to be managers. And then we are surprised that those massive organisations are badly structured and badly organised.

 

[TheBigShort]

True. It is all wrong and shopuld all be challenged. I think you'll find I have been critical of all vested interest groups and have previously made the same general points you make above

Without wanting to diverge from the point, as long as what dealings a vested interest group has with government is above-board and transparent, then there shouldn't be an issue.
The issue I think with Apple and Ireland is that the rules and procedures were found by the EU Commission to be used in a manner that gave undue favour to Apple ie all was not above aboard and transparent (notwithstanding the government position denying any favourable treatment).

You have to ask yourself what "most Advantage" means

I would suggest most advantage could be measured in monetary terms.
To my understanding, a lot more resources are input into welfare and tax fraud by ordinary working people and business operators, than there is into international corporate and banking practices.
It took the EU to expose the Apple Tax. It took nine years to for the Drumm/Anglo case to conclude. The Panama off-shore accounts date back to the 1970's.
And since the crash in 2008 there is a litany of global financial scandals exposed involving amounts that dwarf amounts detected in the ordinary course of affairs.
I suppose what im getting at is, more resources at international level to combat what to me is widespread tax evasion and false accounting amounting to overall sums of €bn's and tens of €bns.

 

[TheBigShort]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...laundering-shock-denmark-wants-bigger-eu-role

This is kind of what I have in mind.

I do reckon that if a greater focus and impetus is placed on the type and scale of fraud that occurs in the banking industry then governments would stand to reap substantial windfalls through taxes owed.
Alot of social ills plus national debts could be significantly addressed.

 

[Purple]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...laundering-shock-denmark-wants-bigger-eu-role

This is kind of what I have in mind.

I do reckon that if a greater focus and impetus is placed on the type and scale of fraud that occurs in the banking industry then governments would stand to reap substantial windfalls through taxes owed.
Alot of social ills plus national debts could be significantly addressed.

I agree completely BS but it's not an either/or situation. There's no reason not to tackle all forms of fraud and criminality.

 

[TheBigShort]

I agree completely BS but it's not an either/or situation. There's no reason not to tackle all forms of fraud and criminality.

Absolutely. I do however think that whatever resources are available to tackle financial crime that they are overly weighted towards catching the little guy relative to the resources used to tackling major financial fraud.
Albeit that is just my impression, I did note that the lead Detective in the Drumm case has called for more resources to tackle white collar crime. One of the reasons the investigation took so long was because the Gardai had to establish first that a crime had taken place. In effect, there was no crime scene, presumably because the actual paper trail is all legal and above board.