Gaming the System

[gnf_ireland]

I've been offered discounts for cash payments from tradespeople, solicitors, accountants, architects and doctors. That's all tax evasion/fraud.

To be honest I have had the opposite problem, especially with tradespeople. I have found it impossible to get people to do work as I refuse to pay cash to people. The amount of times I needed someone to do a small job and I mention payment by bank transfer, they are all too busy. And don't get me started on the HRI scheme - failed miserably to get people to do 1-2k jobs within this scheme.

Never had the solicitor, accountant, architect or doctor experience, but I am not saying it does not happen.

I have had a number of taxi drivers refuse to give me receipts for trips, to the point where I have asked to be driven to the local garda station before a till receipt magically appears from no where.

And my favourite one - paying cash for childcare, despite the fact most would not be paying much tax anyway and the only save the 8.6% employer PRSI. Its either because people are too lazy, the person is illegal or drawing social welfare at the same time.

If you don't see a connection between the tax you contribute, and how it is manifested in your area in schools, hospitals, roads, police, infrastructure projects... then you will see it as acceptable to dodge tax.

This is exactly the issue. People need to feel the money is being used correctly and not wasted and this lack of trust is simply not there with the irish public

Telling an American that you don't pay your taxes is like telling them you are a pedophile. If you are fully tax compliant here you are a fool.

In the Nordics, tax evasion is the only crime where there is no 'excuse for'. Murder can be justified to a point; tax evasion not


I am not sure if anyone has ever been to Chile, but it is the consumers responsibility to ensure they have a receipt for the goods they purchase before the leave the story, or for any services they buy. If they cannot provide a receipt on inspection, they are liable to a large fine - without exception. In my month in Chile (~2003/04) I was stopped and inspected around 20 times - always had my receipts as I was warned about this.

Maybe we have to reverse the mindset on this and in the event someone is caught paying cash without a proper receipt, the payer is liable for a large fine.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

What about low and middle income earners? Or is it just a privilege for high-earners?
The irony is, the laws, decisions, rules, are by and large drawn up and set by high-earners. Isnt that why they are paid a pretty penny? To take the 'hard' decisions?

Low and middle earners contribute very little to the system so have less right to interrogate it.

High earners pay an insane proportion of the tax in this country.

 

[elacsaplau]

High earners pay an insane proportion of the tax in this country.

So the haves should have more and the have-nots less?

 

[TheBigShort]

Low and middle earners contribute very little to the system so have less right to interrogate it.

High earners pay an insane proportion of the tax in this country.

Its the tax system. We ALL have a stake in the society that we live in. Which is generally shaped and influenced by decisions made at leadership levels in politics, civil service, health, education, industry and commerce, IT etc.
Those in leadership roles tend more often than not to be high earners.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

What exactly is your point Big Short?

That high earners shouldn’t feel more annoyed when they see their greater contribution squandered?

 

[joe sod]

In the Nordics, tax evasion is the only crime where there is no 'excuse for'. Murder can be justified to a point; tax evasion not

I think the nordic model is under extreme strain now due to the migration issue. The only way it can survive is with australian and canadian style border controls.

 

[dub_nerd]

Stop crusading and start reporting, off you go!

Nailed it, Jim2007. Have seen several examples on these very pages of people complaining about a tax cheat and then slinking off when it is suggested they should be reported. If you are too squeamish to do the right thing, too scared of being a "rat", then don't be surprised when your complaints are ineffectual.

 

[gnf_ireland]

I think the nordic model is under extreme strain now due to the migration issue. The only way it can survive is with australian and canadian style border controls.

Absolutely - it was under massive pressure when I lived there a decade ago, and was projected to get a lot worse
Cradle to Grave social support only works for people born into the system, and where the numbers requiring welfare are controlled.

 

[odyssey06]

I think the nordic model is under extreme strain now due to the migration issue. The only way it can survive is with australian and canadian style border controls.

Then the Nordic model is incompatible with EU membership...

 

[Purple]

Well given that between 45% and 53% of American households to not pay income taxes, there is every chance you will be telling to someone who does not pay income taxes either!

Are they still tax compliant?

Stop crusading and start reporting, off you go!

How do you know what I do?
I have reported people for tax evasion. I've also reported them for insurance fraud.

High earners are entitled to feel peeved when their taxes are squandered in the manner that they currently are.

We live in a republic where your democratic rights are not determined by your income. They used to have that in Northern Ireland and some of the Southern States of the USA. I'm not a fan of the idea.

 

[Purple]

To be honest I have had the opposite problem, especially with tradespeople. I have found it impossible to get people to do work as I refuse to pay cash to people. The amount of times I needed someone to do a small job and I mention payment by bank transfer, they are all too busy. And don't get me started on the HRI scheme - failed miserably to get people to do 1-2k jobs within this scheme.

That's the same problem.

 

[DeclanDublin]

Why is Welfare fraud such a hot topic when there is such a prevalence of fraud and tax evasion across all areas of society?
I bought a phone for my daughter on Sunday and the woman in the shop offered to put her phone on my business account. She was amazed when I said no, that would be fraud/ tax evasion.
We make bogus insurance claims. I've been offered discounts for cash payments from tradespeople, solicitors, accountants, architects and doctors. That's all tax evasion/fraud.

We have TD's who have been found guilty of tax evasion on a massive scale. We have individuals in banks who engaged in massive and systematic fraud (the Tracker Mortgage scandal) who we all know will never be held personally accountable.
We live in a society where low level corruption, tax evasion and fraud are socially acceptable. Telling an American that you don't pay your taxes is like telling them you are a pedophile. If you are fully tax compliant here you are a fool.

How do we change that?
Do we want to change it?

What exactly is your point Big Short?

That high earners shouldn’t feel more annoyed when they see their greater contribution squandered?

This sound remarkably like a justification for an aristocracy. More wealth = more clout or more entitlement to clout.

 

[Purple]

Never had the solicitor, accountant, architect or doctor experience, but I am not saying it does not happen.

I've been told my a consultant's secretary that he only takes cash. There is only one reason why someone only takes cash. I received a hand written receipt with no serial number.

 

[TheBigShort]

What exactly is your point Big Short?

That high earners shouldn’t feel more annoyed when they see their greater contribution squandered?

Thats exactly the point. Its a fallacious viewpoint to hold. 'Squandered' is subjective. There is no unison collective voice of 'high' earners bemoaning the squandering of their taxes.
How taxes are spent in this country is ultimately the decision of government ministers. They generally tend to be intelligent and educated people who are high-earners themselves, or at least capable of attaining higher earning positions in the private sector. They take advice from high earning civil servants and they listen to the views of lobby groups, who more often than not, pay high wages to a person they believe is best placed to represent their views.

In the end decisions are made, some people disagree with the decisions and some others agree.
But where there is disagreement and a belief that taxes are being squandered, high earners rarely, if ever, hold a monopoly on that belief.
A €5 increase JSA is as likely to annoy somehow on low-middle income who thinks bus fares and VAT are too high, as it is someone earning €150,000 a year. And they are as equally entitled to feel that is squandering taxes, if they are inclined to think that way in the first instance.

 

[Purple]

Thats exactly the point. Its a fallacious viewpoint to hold. 'Squandered' is subjective. There is no unison collective voice of 'high' earners bemoaning the squandering of their taxes.
How taxes are spent in this country is ultimately the decision of government ministers. They generally tend to be intelligent and educated people who are high-earners themselves, or at least capable of attaining higher earning positions in the private sector. They take advice from high earning civil servants and they listen to the views of lobby groups, who more often than not, pay high wages to a person they believe is best placed to represent their views.

In the end decisions are made, some people disagree with the decisions and some others agree.
But where there is disagreement and a belief that taxes are being squandered, high earners rarely, if ever, hold a monopoly on that belief.
A €5 increase JSA is as likely to annoy somehow on low-middle income who thinks bus fares and VAT are too high, as it is someone earning €150,000 a year. And they are as equally entitled to feel that is squandering taxes, if they are inclined to think that way in the first instance.

I think it's fair to say that it is very frustrating for someone seeing over half their marginal earning being taken in taxes looking at (for example) waiting lists and chaos in a health service which is one of the best funded in the world. That frustration is exacerbated when those running and working in that health system just keep asking for more and more money without any discernible improvement in services.
Someone who is a net recipient of income from the State (most people) might feel less aggrieved since it's not their money that is being wasted as they don't actually contribute any net taxes.

 

[Gordon Gekko]

...government ministers. They generally tend to be intelligent and educated people who are high-earners themselves, or at least capable of attaining higher earning positions in the private sector. They take advice from high earning civil servants

Firstly, they are not high-earners. Secondly, they tend to be school teachers and the like on long-term secondments and full of glee at earning €100,000 a year. As for the civil servants, with some exceptions, they tend to be utter dross who wouldn’t last 10 minutes in the private sector. Many of this country’s financial woes would be solved by sending half of its public servants to the firing squad.

 

[RETIRED2017]

Firstly, they are not high-earners. Secondly, they tend to be school teachers and the like on long-term secondments and full of glee at earning €100,000 a year. As for the civil servants, with some exceptions, they tend to be utter dross who wouldn’t last 10 minutes in the private sector. Many of this country’s financial woes would be solved by sending half of its public servants to the firing squad.

I have met lots and lots of very good public servants if fact i met more in the private doing a very poor job and getting well paid for it, for the record both my wife and myself worked in the private sector all of out life I don't think it is fair to pick out people because of where they work full stop,

We had a good few Private sector ministers who were very poor at there job,

 

[mccoypat94]

I've been told my a consultant's secretary that he only takes cash. There is only one reason why someone only takes cash. I received a hand written receipt with no serial number.

Absolutley. Ive had that experience with the medical profession also.

What galls me is when tradesmen just expect its a cash payment, and if you ask for a reciept or dont pay cash they say, ah well we'll have to charge the vat so!
I run a small retail shop, every price tag includes vat!!!!

 

[RETIRED2017]

Absolutley. Ive had that experience with the medical profession also.

What galls me is when tradesmen just expect its a cash payment, and if you ask for a reciept or dont pay cash they say, ah well we'll have to charge the vat so!
I run a small retail shop, every price tag includes vat!!!!

Gaming the system is the main reason why we pay pay high taxes in this Country ,

 

[odyssey06]

Gaming the system is the main reason why we pay pay high taxes in this Country ,

Is it? I'm not sure if it's the main reason... if we have a health sector that needs twice as much money to deliver the same (or worse) service as other EU countries (or worse)... or does that count as gaming the system too \ feather bedding?

According to the Examinder, the size of Ireland's Black market in 2013 was €1.2 billion:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/sex-and-drugs-help-add-euro12bn-to-gdp-274271.html

According to this: "Black market trading is estimated to have cost the economy close to €2.5bn last year. Almost €800m of that is a direct loss to the Exchequer, according to a report by consultants Grant Thornton."
https://www.independent.ie/business...ing-cost-economy-25bn-last-year-34703091.html

But I wonder if those figures include tax evasion \ welfare fraud? And that's a pretty big discrepancy between a "size" of €1.2 billion and a "cost" of €2.5 billion.

This is list of selected countries by Shadow economy:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallm...-firmly-established-infographic/#e37b70c742cc

In January 2015, Ireland's shadow economy was 11% of GDP, versus an EU average of 18% - the shadow economy also includes activities such as illegal gambling, drugs, prostitution etc as well as nixers.
[broken link removed]

Even if we increase the percentage to account for Ireland's abnornal GDP v GNP ratio, €255m versus €200m in 2015 ... we would still be average or just below at 14%.
Or maybe, our figures are just bogus and we are missing out on some leprechauns somewhere with their stashed pots of gold :0