So much Disney.
For many things haven't changed. Other than its got even more expensive and their quality life has fallen. For others they are doing ok. That proportion was (as a sweeping generalization) reflected in the election results.
FG mugged the middle class and never touched the banks.
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So much Disney.
For many things haven't changed. Other than its got even more expensive and their quality life has fallen. For others they are doing ok. That proportion was (as a sweeping generalization) reflected in the election results.
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Mr Holmes
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Both Warren Buffet and Chuck Feeney have stated that luck was a major factor in their accumulation of significant wealth. Once you get there money makes money. As regards class structures, we still have the old school tie system, live and kicking. It is cheaper to live in Berlin or Madrid than it is to live in Dublin.
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Gordon Gekko
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Luck with regard to becoming billionaires!
There is far less luck involved where someone achieves a comfortable middle-class standard of living.
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Mr Holmes
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You are making a lot of assumptions. For example, how would you rate the chances of someone coming from a dysfunctional lower class family making it to a comfortable middle class standard of living.
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Mr Holmes
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Yes, this is true, most joe soaps took it in the neck, 100% haircuts etc, but all the serious investors took preferential shares, institutional investors took junior and senior bonds. They all got paid !
Gordon Gekko
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Far greater than in the UK or the US. And with our excellent education system, that person would have a good chance of escaping their circumstances.
I have serious doubts about this "excellent" education system of ours. After 12 years of studying Irish very few students can hold even a basic conversation.
There is no reason to believe that the system is better at any other subject.
Much less than in the past. In previous decades any one who got through secondary school, no matter how difficult that was for them or their family, had achieved something worthwhile. Something which could allow them to enjoy a middle class life.
This is no longer the case. Many students now leave second level without a good level of functional literacy or numeracy.
I am not intending to be smart here but I would not rate the chances of someone coming from a dysfunctional middle or upper class family making it to a comfortable middle class standard of living either. There are dysfunctional families in every category of society and what can a Government do about it
I agree to an extent but on average it is pretty good. Having had children that finished 3rd level in the recent past I have to say that the opportunity is there for all to go to 3rd level if they want to. From what I heard from my own family and other families incl social welfare families it was a level enough playing field if you want to get on. Not everyone wants to follow the academic route.
BTW I was unable to avail of 3rd level due to financial reasons in my era.
The banks are not their shareholders... AIB bank and bankers seemed to carry on pretty much the same... the ship hit an iceberg and the only passengers to be thrown over were the shareholders... Shareholders are supposed to run companies to protect their investment. We need a system where that is true. It would be a better one that the current one where shareholders and regulators cannot trust the people running banks not to destroy them with reckless lending (or why would we need the 3.5 lending rules etc).
As an aside - and I could be wrong - I thought Bank of Ireland wasn't nationalised.
Besides, the title of this thread is that FG never touched the banks. They didn't. The losses the shareholders suffered, and nationalisation, were set in play before FG came to power. FG came to power promising to share the bank losses with bondholders (primarily banks and foreign financial institutions). They didn't.
Instead of facing down the troika on this score, they preferred to face down the Irish people over water charges, not ending USC and austerity in general.
They thought they were choosing the path of least resistance. They were wrong.
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Mr Holmes
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Ireland spends 9.7% on education as oppose to the 13% average in the OECD and despite what you say there is significant socio economic barriers to entry into third level college in this Country. Do some research in this field. Your ascertion that we currently have an excellent education system does not stand up to any scrutiny.
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Mr Holmes
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Maybe the Government should employ more social workers and early interventionists to deal with dysfunctional families. Currently there are two social workers employed to service the whole Dublin area after hours ( outside 9am to 5pm ). That might be a starting point.
BTW families are still unable to avail of 3rd level due to financial reasons.
One of the mantras of the "left" was that the Government (whether FF or FG/ Lab) bailed out the Banks. In reality, shareholders (investors) lost all their Equity (virtually all) but it was Depositors who were bailed out. These would have been mostly ordinary citizens with Deposit Accounts and Current Accounts. Imagine the protests if all depositors were bailed in.
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Mr Holmes
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That why there was a bail out and not a bail in. Was Anglo a SIFI, I do not think so.
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Families don't avail of third level education, individuals do.
If an individual is unable to afford university at 18 what's to stop them working for 4-5 years and saving for University. They could enter at 22 or 23. The opportunity is there.
Wealth equality will never happen and should not be a goal. Equality of opportunity should be the goal and by and large that exists in Ireland.
There's nothing to stop someone with work ethic and a good attitude doing well.
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Mr Holmes
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These individuals also have the opportunity to be an astronaut or President of Ireland, the question is, statistically, how likely is this going to happen. Equality of opportunity is a mirage and is subject to a myriad of outside factors such as political connections, old school ties, religion, etc., to think otherwise is to bury one's head in the sand. Take off the rose coloured spectacles.
During Fine Gaels and Labours ( shame on you ) reign in government, the number of millionaires in this Country increase significantly, while, at the same time, the number of people living below the poverty line increased dramatically. In other words, the wealth divide increased. Equality of opportunity my eye, how can a child even get a good primary school education when they are living day to day in different hotel rooms. This is a problem that will come back and bite Irish society's This post will be deleted if not edited to remove bad language in 20 years time.
Oh, and by the way, families certainly do avail of third level education for their children, ever hear of family education trust funds for little Fiachra to attend college, very big in the USA, U.K. In upper and upper middle class Ireland, Mammy and Daddy usually put aside a little nest egg for the kids education ( their very own little fund ! )
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My understanding is that OECD figures use GDP as a basis. Any figures quoted for spending in Ireland that do not use GNP are unreliable due to our exceptional multinational basis.
When the OECD actually ranks Ireland's education system as a whole, not just counting input percentages, we regularly get very good to excellent ratings. I can't post links for some reason but just google, Ireland OECD education ranking.
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Mr Holmes
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Ireland now lags behind the UK when it comes to world educational systems ( Mr Gekko will not like this fact or indeed post ). Our universities have also fallen in the ranking tables, due in no small part, to the Government's underfunding of the universities infrastructure. These are all facts! Say what you will, but the last Government mugged not only the middle class but also the lower class. Meanwhile, those well heeled, send their kids in droves to private schools, like the Institute of Education, Leeson St, Dublin, in order for them to achieve higher results in their leaving certificate as compared with their compatriots in the public educational system ( fact ). Equality of opportunity, my foot.
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Well all I can say to that I am well aware of many many families who are on social welfare and have their children in 3rd level education. They are availing of the grants and are not living in areas where 3rd level institutions are close by.
Equally I am aware of people who are in relatively good jobs who are struggling massively to put their children through 3rd level.
As we are essentially talking on this thread about the last 5 years what are the real figures during this period that led to the massive sea change in education in the last 5 years.
Where is the utopian state that has all the perfect scenarios that are being complained about in this country and in this thread. Is it Greece?.
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