Farmer Nally
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quarterfloun
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Intemperate post deleted by RainyDay
Was there ever any doubt that Mr Nally had done this? If he didn't try to cover it up/hide what he had done then it seems reasonable that the jury were directed not to acquit him as the trial would have been about the severity of the charge rather than whether he had commited the crime or not.
I think that when a man plagues another man and robs him of peace and security, he is asking for it.
Travellers like Mr Ward don't do the rest of them any favours when it comes to discrimination and fair treatment etc, and I think this case is a disaster in that respect. It's caused real rancour. I remember being in Western Australia and being a little surprised by the outright hatred people there seemed to have for Aborigines, and thinking ok many people in Ireland don't like travellers but I never got a sense of real rancour and hatred before . . . . .cases like this will bring us further along that road which is a sad thing.
Travellers like Mr Ward don't do the rest of them any favours when it comes to discrimination and fair treatment etc, and I think this case is a disaster in that respect. It's caused real rancour. I remember being in Western Australia and being a little surprised by the outright hatred people there seemed to have for Aborigines, and thinking ok many people in Ireland don't like travellers but I never got a sense of real rancour and hatred before . . . . .cases like this will bring us further along that road which is a sad thing.
DrMoriarty
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As a child, I also lived in S. Africa in the "bad old days" - does that mean my views on the Nally case are inherently imbalanced? Or that all (presumably white?) South Africans are racist, regardless of their views on apartheid? 
For what it's worth (and if people want to start a separate thread on that topic?) — in Australia, it only became illegal to shoot an aborigine on your property in the mid-seventies. Just for trespass; you didn't have to have felt in any way threatened...
For what it's worth (and if people want to start a separate thread on that topic?) — in Australia, it only became illegal to shoot an aborigine on your property in the mid-seventies. Just for trespass; you didn't have to have felt in any way threatened...
DrMoriarty
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quarterfloun
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Please do not interpret my highlighting of Tony Martins actions killing a person who is not a member of the settled community as being inflammatory in any way just an observation that there seems to be some gene deficiency in their understanding of what is theirs and what is not. I have never gone into an encampment or farm, gone into a caravan or farmhouse, removed goods without permisssion from the farmer or unsettled person because I live within the law. If I choose to do these things and show no respect for the law then I strongly believe that I have no recouse to the Law that I have no respect for.
I also think that we should not draw the dangerous analogy that unsettled people of any nationality are all criminals - they are not.
I can understand why Aborigines (as previously brought up and unmoderated) and Native South Africans (as previously brought up and unmoderated) may feel aggrieved somewhat in the way they have ended up (poor and unwelcome in their own lands) but I cannot understand why our indigenous unsettled "communities" would feel so aggrieved as to behave in a similar manner as they have not had their hunting lands removed from them by "The White Man" and they are certainly not poor unless they have borrowed these fine 4WD vehicles from a rich aunt.
I await your censure with baited breat Rainy
I also think that we should not draw the dangerous analogy that unsettled people of any nationality are all criminals - they are not.
I can understand why Aborigines (as previously brought up and unmoderated) and Native South Africans (as previously brought up and unmoderated) may feel aggrieved somewhat in the way they have ended up (poor and unwelcome in their own lands) but I cannot understand why our indigenous unsettled "communities" would feel so aggrieved as to behave in a similar manner as they have not had their hunting lands removed from them by "The White Man" and they are certainly not poor unless they have borrowed these fine 4WD vehicles from a rich aunt.
I await your censure with baited breat Rainy
Well that's not how it works. Equality before the law is a fundamental right . Breaking the law in no way abrogates a persons rights or obligations in this respect.quarterfloun said:
When a settled person commits a crime do you attribute this action to their ethnic origin? If not then why do it when it involves other groups?
Clubman,
>>Are you referring to Mr. Nally or Mr. Ward here? Mr. Ward was obviously not blameless in this but Mr. Nally deliberately killed him. I would have assumed that manslaughter was a greater crime than trespass.<<
Of course it is. Look, my remark was just a remark, not an argument that trepass was a lesser crime. I guess what I was trying to say, and tie yourself in knots over it all you want, was that I think anyone could have seen that coming including Mr Ward. And if he couldn't he should have. If you go around burgling people (and in this case driving someone to the edge with fear) I think you are running the risk of being retaliated against, that's the way the world is.
>>Are you referring to Mr. Nally or Mr. Ward here? Mr. Ward was obviously not blameless in this but Mr. Nally deliberately killed him. I would have assumed that manslaughter was a greater crime than trespass.<<
Of course it is. Look, my remark was just a remark, not an argument that trepass was a lesser crime. I guess what I was trying to say, and tie yourself in knots over it all you want, was that I think anyone could have seen that coming including Mr Ward. And if he couldn't he should have. If you go around burgling people (and in this case driving someone to the edge with fear) I think you are running the risk of being retaliated against, that's the way the world is.
delgirl, you made a reference earlier that when you lived in SA it used to be OK to shoot black "trespassers". While you did not say you agreed with such behaviour, I assumed your point was that our own modern laws here are a little behind? Perhaps I misunderstood you.
If your participation in the white SA regime was not of your own choice (or that of your family, assuming you share their values) -- or indeed if you were there to work with the dispossessed majority -- well then the fact that you lived in SA is irrelevant to your judgement of how best to deal with the transgressions of the "underclass", and if that's the case I apologise.
If your participation in the white SA regime was not of your own choice (or that of your family, assuming you share their values) -- or indeed if you were there to work with the dispossessed majority -- well then the fact that you lived in SA is irrelevant to your judgement of how best to deal with the transgressions of the "underclass", and if that's the case I apologise.
I am not tying myself in knots but you seem to be rationalising or condoning what happened on the basis of the victim's behaviour and I feel that this is a slippery slope if applied to similar crimes - e.g. should a rape victim bear some of the reponsibility for their assault if they are in a certain place and acting in a certain way at the time? Obviously not but that would be the logical extension of your sort of reasoning in this case.annR said:
D
daltonr
Guest
I can say with a fair amount of certainty that if this farmer's property was broken into in the past then it would have a fairly severe impact on him,
and would almost certainly have lead to severe fear and paranoia.
I'm not a psychologist, but from my own much less severe involvement with Crime, I know that I now have a completely different sleep pattern than I used to. Any sound outside the house at night will wake me and I'll be out of bed and at the window without even thinking about it.
Given that this criminal showed up on his property it would appear his worries were justified. Would we have preferred to read about a farmer beaten to within an inch of his life or worse? No. We've read that story too many times. And you can be sure that had this criminal gotten away with what he planned that night there would have been more robberies, and with 11 kids there was a whole new generation of thieves on the way.
Have I sympathy for his family? None. They lived off his crime, this is the price you pay.
Personally if I owned a gun and encountered someone in my house I'd like to think I'd make damn sure I didn't need to reload. I certainly wouldn't waste my time calling the Gardai, been there done that.
The only arguments I've heard against this farmer are that he re-loaded and fired again? Would he have walked free if his first shot had been a kill? As for whether he was right to reload and finish the job. How would you feel knowing that this thug was out there willing and able to come back for revenge? It's not a justificiation, but It's something to consider. Do you think you'd ever sleep soundly again?
None of us thankfully know what it's like to be this man, but I hope he feels that his time in Jail will be worth it, and when he get's out he'll have years of peaceful nights sleep.
And hopefully the revolving door of our prisons get him out as quickly as the criminal that tried to rob him would have gotten out had be been caught.
Is Tresspass a lesser crime than Man Slaughter?
That's not the issue at all. Mr Ward was on someone else's property. WE have no idea how sever a crime he was willing to commit. What we do know is only one person was there with the intent to commit a crime.
We also know that Mr Nally is unlikely to ever commit a crime again, whereas Mr Ward would probably have committed more THAT NIGHT, and again, and again.
The right person is in the ground. Thank goodness.
That's about as illogical an extension as I could imagine. Having a crime committed against you while you yourself are in the process of committing a crime, is a completely different thing from having a crime comitted against you while you are doing nothing wrong.
Even putting this aside Rape is a terrible analogy. There is no way that rape can EVER be considered a defensive crime, whereas Manslaughter can be committed when defending yourself.
-Rd
and would almost certainly have lead to severe fear and paranoia.
I'm not a psychologist, but from my own much less severe involvement with Crime, I know that I now have a completely different sleep pattern than I used to. Any sound outside the house at night will wake me and I'll be out of bed and at the window without even thinking about it.
Given that this criminal showed up on his property it would appear his worries were justified. Would we have preferred to read about a farmer beaten to within an inch of his life or worse? No. We've read that story too many times. And you can be sure that had this criminal gotten away with what he planned that night there would have been more robberies, and with 11 kids there was a whole new generation of thieves on the way.
Have I sympathy for his family? None. They lived off his crime, this is the price you pay.
Personally if I owned a gun and encountered someone in my house I'd like to think I'd make damn sure I didn't need to reload. I certainly wouldn't waste my time calling the Gardai, been there done that.
The only arguments I've heard against this farmer are that he re-loaded and fired again? Would he have walked free if his first shot had been a kill? As for whether he was right to reload and finish the job. How would you feel knowing that this thug was out there willing and able to come back for revenge? It's not a justificiation, but It's something to consider. Do you think you'd ever sleep soundly again?
None of us thankfully know what it's like to be this man, but I hope he feels that his time in Jail will be worth it, and when he get's out he'll have years of peaceful nights sleep.
And hopefully the revolving door of our prisons get him out as quickly as the criminal that tried to rob him would have gotten out had be been caught.
Is Tresspass a lesser crime than Man Slaughter?
That's not the issue at all. Mr Ward was on someone else's property. WE have no idea how sever a crime he was willing to commit. What we do know is only one person was there with the intent to commit a crime.
We also know that Mr Nally is unlikely to ever commit a crime again, whereas Mr Ward would probably have committed more THAT NIGHT, and again, and again.
The right person is in the ground. Thank goodness.
That's about as illogical an extension as I could imagine. Having a crime committed against you while you yourself are in the process of committing a crime, is a completely different thing from having a crime comitted against you while you are doing nothing wrong.
Even putting this aside Rape is a terrible analogy. There is no way that rape can EVER be considered a defensive crime, whereas Manslaughter can be committed when defending yourself.
-Rd