Estimates of Receipts and Expenditure for 2025 published


Look at corp tax creeping up beside income tax!........I've said it before and I'll say it again.......Ireland is now a two times levered SPY or QQQ mutual fund.......our public finances are basically predicated on record profit margins & current market positioning persisting at a handful of mega-cap companies.....some of those companies - Apple, Microsoft, Google - seem invincible but so too did Eastman Kodak in its day.

There's a deeply troubling operational leverage inherent in our economic model that could go in reverse very very quickly........I haven't seen the analysis but suspect a huge proportion of income tax receipts are also coming from SPY/QQQ company employees too......

Very dangerous stuff to do what we're doing with the public finances.....Ireland has infrastructure deficits, no doubt about it.....and money has to be thrown at this for sure...so no problem with one time capital expenditure...the spending commitments being directed on current and future expenditure is going to put future governments and future generations in a tight spot.

Maybe Pascal when he's IMF chief in the future can fly back for a couple of days to give us a dig out!
 
There is a major sense of pre-crash off this budget. Major increases in spending, opposition calling for even more, further narrowing of the tax base, and economic experts waved away with a hand. This time, instead of a credit fueled housing bubble we have a multinational tax take influenced by global changes in taxation rules and the quarterly sales performance of a handful of companies. iPhone 16 not selling well in China? There goes the deficit.

In terms of investing the money now - the economy is running at full tilt. "Lets build more of x" - where will the construction workers come from to complete what is already being built plus these new projects? Or will we just increase the cost of delivering roughly the same volume of concrete poured.

Stick the money into funds that appreciate and deploy it when the next major recession hits, keeping the likes of our construction sector in business rather than heading off to Australia like last time.

Hard to believe that the last time we did all this was only 15 years ago! Jack Chambers or his successor could well be on Prime Time in a few years reminding us that we all partied....
 
Stick the money into funds that appreciate and deploy it when the next major recession hits, keeping the likes of our construction sector in business rather than heading off to Australia like last time.
Not disagreeing with your main points but, isn't that what the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund (sovereign wealth/investment fund) is intended for?
 
There is a major sense of pre-crash off this budget. Major increases in spending, opposition calling for even more, further narrowing of the tax base, and economic experts waved away with a hand. This time, instead of a credit fueled housing bubble we have a multinational tax take influenced by global changes in taxation rules and the quarterly sales performance of a handful of companies. iPhone 16 not selling well in China? There goes the deficit.

In terms of investing the money now - the economy is running at full tilt. "Lets build more of x" - where will the construction workers come from to complete what is already being built plus these new projects? Or will we just increase the cost of delivering roughly the same volume of concrete poured.

Stick the money into funds that appreciate and deploy it when the next major recession hits, keeping the likes of our construction sector in business rather than heading off to Australia like last time.

Hard to believe that the last time we did all this was only 15 years ago! Jack Chambers or his successor could well be on Prime Time in a few years reminding us that we all partied....

Fully agree. To be honest this time I think a lot of people can see it.

There is definitely a case of less and less for the money spent. I’m just not sure if we can not spend it and wait until a recession then get much better value.

It’s hard to underestimate just how little we did for the best part of 10 years and we weren’t starting from a place of strength. We were well behind on infrastructure. The stuff you see and the stuff you don’t.

Like investment time in is the key to good infrastructure. When we look at countries poorer than is with better infrastructure it’s usually the case that we are only better off for the last 20 years.
 
Not disagreeing with your main points but, isn't that what the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund (sovereign wealth/investment fund) is intended for?
Part of the money is going in - I believe the underlying deficit is €6bn after you strip out the money going to the SIF. Then there's arguments back and forth over what is "one off" spending - a lot of one off measures are starting to look very permanent. So if we hit the skids we look like we'll do what we did post 2008: Gut capital spending, because current spending is so far out over the skis.
 
Look at corp tax creeping up beside income tax!........I've said it before and I'll say it again.......Ireland is now a two times levered SPY or QQQ mutual fund.......our public finances are basically predicated on record profit margins & current market positioning persisting at a handful of mega-cap companies.....some of those companies - Apple, Microsoft, Google - seem invincible but so too did Eastman Kodak in its day.

There's a deeply troubling operational leverage inherent in our economic model that could go in reverse very very quickly........I haven't seen the analysis but suspect a huge proportion of income tax receipts are also coming from SPY/QQQ company employees too......

Very dangerous stuff to do what we're doing with the public finances.....Ireland has infrastructure deficits, no doubt about it.....and money has to be thrown at this for sure...so no problem with one time capital expenditure...the spending commitments being directed on current and future expenditure is going to put future governments and future generations in a tight spot.

Maybe Pascal when he's IMF chief in the future can fly back for a couple of days to give us a dig out!
Yes it would be much better if our public finances were based on farming and shoe making.

What a lot of nonsense.
 
There is a major sense of pre-crash off this budget. Major increases in spending, opposition calling for even more, further narrowing of the tax base, and economic experts waved away with a hand. This time, instead of a credit fueled housing bubble we have a multinational tax take influenced by global changes in taxation rules and the quarterly sales performance of a handful of companies. iPhone 16 not selling well in China? There goes the deficit.
While poor iPhone sales in China will not affect the Irish economy or tax take much, a major slow down in the international economy would affect us. It is often said that as an open economy it would affect us disproportionately, but I suspect that pharmaceuticals, medical devices, tech and HQ services are unlikely to be the first to suffer.

Irrespective of what the future holds we can only do our best for the situation we are in. And prepare for the future through education and by building infrastructure.

In terms of investing the money now - the economy is running at full tilt. "Lets build more of x" - where will the construction workers come from to complete what is already being built plus these new projects? Or will we just increase the cost of delivering roughly the same volume of concrete poured.

Stick the money into funds that appreciate and deploy it when the next major recession hits, keeping the likes of our construction sector in business rather than heading off to Australia like last time.
What funds that appreciate are these, Apple shares anyone ?

Finding the construction workers and addressing the other bottle necks is certainly a challenge, but waiting for a downturn is not the way to address it.
 
What funds that appreciate are these, Apple shares anyone ?

Finding the construction workers and addressing the other bottle necks is certainly a challenge, but waiting for a downturn is not the way to address it.
Good examples of national funds for us to follow, that are well diversified.

Countercyclical spending is exactly what's required. Post 2008 we had no room for maneuver and cut capital budgets aggressively. This also helped to hollow out our construction sector, which only lately has returned to pre crash employment levels - with an extra million people living in the country.

We should do what we can now to increase this capacity (apprenticeships are one example. I'd argue we should try and attract workers the way Australia does to its mines or the UAE does to its construction sector. But then where do we house them... So not a panacea unless we're going to open work camps) - but we're limited in how much we can increase capacity.

If there is a downturn and finance for construction dries up or other things freeze in the system, that is precisely when state spending should come in and keep activity levels consistent. Just trying to juice activity levels in an already red hot economy will drive concentrated inflation with significant reductions in marginal returns.

Instead what's likely to happen is we hit a downturn and the "underlying deficit" becomes "the deficit" and rather than cut current spending ("Oh we need the temporary energy credit now more than ever!") we'll cut capital spending again and repeat the cycle.

Just my 0.2 cents!
 
There's a deeply troubling operational leverage inherent in our economic model that could go in reverse very very quickly........I haven't seen the analysis but suspect a huge proportion of income tax receipts are also coming from SPY/QQQ company employees too......

This is not nonsense. It is something we have to be aware of.

In most economies, the tax comes from economic activity within that economy.

If the UK decides it wants to increase spending on the health service, they have to raise taxes somewhere.

But in Ireland we are getting huge amounts of tax not related to any economic activity in Ireland.

Brendan
 
They are legitimate economic activities

Current taxation rules allow companies to record these profits in whatever country they decide - luckily, for many that means Ireland, hence our windfall Corporation Tax receipts

But unlike a factory, these "activities" could be moved to another country tomorrow with little or no effort

Basing our current spending on these tax receipts is folly of the greatest order - on a par with the loan based spending in the early 2000s
 
This has always confused me. In the modern era why shouldn't stuff like IP licensing transfers and airplane leasing be considered legitimate economic activity?
As noted by jpd - This is a case of "easy come, easy go." The OECD went through a round of corporate tax rule changes that we cooperated in, and ended up benefitting greatly from. Those reforms are not finished, and the next pillar of them is to come. And I could see a situation where third parties again look at the likes of Ireland rolling in surpluses and wanting to go again on the rules. The next thing of note is that policymakers abroad could lean on their domestic champions, or provide incentives, to bring the IP home.

This is not at all sticky, even though it has been happening successfully for a few years. It is highly analogous to the credit fueled housing boom in the sense that it would appear to be a dysfunction that could correct itself at any moment, this time based on the actions of international players who have agency and a desire to see more taxes paid in their jurisdiction.

The second risk is that even if the tax system remains the same, this significantly amplifies our exposure as a small open economy to economic shocks. It's a risk we've always had, but the amplification of that risk in recent years I think is lost on a lot of people.

Back in 2014, the top 10 corporate taxpayers contributed around 37% of corporate tax receipts, which amounted to about €4-5 billion. This represented roughly 6% of Ireland's total tax receipts at the time. Fast forward to 2023, and we see a dramatic increase—those same top 10 now account for 53% of corporate tax revenues, with their contributions nearing 13-14% of all tax receipts.

In 2023 the top 10 accounted for 53% of the corp tax take, which came in at €23.6bn in total. The estimates linked at the top of this thread are estimating corp tax (ex-Apple CJEU) €29.5bn this year out of an estimated total €107bn (27.5%) and €29.5bn next year out of an estimated total €109bn (27%) of current receipts. So if we assume 50% from the top 10, that's €14.75bn each year from 10 companies, which represents ~13.5% of all tax receipts, and that's probably a lowball. Revenue only knows what the value of the domestic employment adds up to, but we know MNCs pay well and that top earners make up most of the income tax take.

This is orders of magnitude more risk to the "small open global economy" we know of the past, and is one reason I point back to the housing boom - firstly we didn't notice the underlying scale of the problem, then we hand waved it away, then we looked shocked when the risk came good.

The fact of the matter is that we are running a deficit now, today, of -€6.3bn and -€5.7bn next year when you strip out the estimates of this one off effect and the money we are (rightly) sending to future investment funds. That's -2% of GNI* this year and -1.7% of GNI* next year. This is at a time when the same forecasts from the DoF have GNI* growing at 4.9% this year and 2.7% over the next few years, with unemployment basically sitting at "full employment" levels. There is absolutely no justification to (a) be running an underlying deficit at this time or (b) be pouring ever larger amounts of money into the system, much of which is (c) actually or likely to be taken as permanent by the population.
 
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