Key Post Electric Vehicles

[Zenith63]

The EU are considering allowing countries exempt zero-emissions vehicles from VAT, to help ‘green up’ the recovery plan. This could change the economics of purchasing an EV very significantly.

Link to Bloomberg article

“Massive support for the automotive industry will put significant debt on future generations,” the commission said in the document. “That support must respect our youth’s expectations on climate change and for a healthier and cleaner future.”

 

[Baby boomer]

EU are considering exempting zero-emissions vehicles from VAT to help ‘green’ the recovery plan. This could change the economics of purchasing an EV very significantly.

Link to Bloomberg article

That will last only as long as it takes to put diesel and petrol models out of business. Then the VAT will be switched on again. Classic bait and switch.

And, specially for Ireland, we'll probably get VRT whacked on top as well. The Irish exchequer is unusually dependent on revenue from motor taxes. The loss of VRT, VAT and excise duty on fuel will leave the public finances under pressure. Guess what, whack the motorist time again

 

[Zenith63]

That will last only as long as it takes to put diesel and petrol models out of business. Then the VAT will be switched on again. Classic bait and switch.

It would certainly be put back on at some point yes. However is certainly not be a classic bait and switch. VAT and VRT are only payable when initially buying a car, so if you get one during the time they’re exempted you will get the full benefit of a lower purchase price and significantly lower running costs - there is no switch after this bait!

The transition to electric vehicles would also have huge non-monetary benefits to society in the form of better air quality, less road noise, lower dependence on external energy sources, less money being pumped into conflict zones like the ME etc. So again the bait is there, but the switch is hard to see.

 

[Baby boomer]

The bait is the promise of cheaper running costs. The switch will be increased usage charges, tolls, car tax, BIK, road pricing, etc etc.

Separately, as EV manufacturing costs and prices fall, government will not be able to resist the temptation to capture this gain with increased purchase taxes. It's as natural as night follows day, unfortunately.

Bookmark this, come back in 2030 and I guarantee we'll see a different narrative around EVs! It'll be all about how even EV cars are still destroying the environment and the need to discourage them. Petrol and diesel will have been taxed out of existence at that point so the environmentalists aim will be focused squarely on EVs. That's also a form of bait and switch.

 

[Zenith63]

Yeah look you'd be crazy to assume road tax/0% BIK/tolls will be cheaper than petrol/diesel forever, those are clearly short-term incentives, there's no trickery going on there.

But even when (not if) roadtax/tolls/BIK go back to being equal with petrol/diesel, you will still be paying 50-75% less for your fuel (unless electricity prices are pumped, which would be devasting for lower income households outside of their car usage) and similarly less for maintenance (all provided by the private sector, so no change the government can make there). And of course while the incentives were around, you've enjoyed much cheaper motoring for 3/5/10 years. And.... you'll be helping improve the air quality in our cities.

Beyond the "Grrrrr the man is always out to get you" narrative, I'm struggling to see your objection.

 

[Leo]

The Irish exchequer is unusually dependent on revenue from motor taxes.

I think the VRT narrative has been a little overplayed by the motor industry over the years. Revenue from alcohol sales alone brings in double what VRT does.

 

[Purple]

I really hope two positive things to come out of this Coronavirus situation are:

1. The government realise they could solve the traffic situation in our cities by incentivising companies to have more workers work-from-home. It’s critical that companies, not individuals, are incentivised because it’s companies generally blocking it, because of security/productivity/inertia. Reduce employer’s PRSI or something like that.

Agreed but working from home is not necessarily a good thing for many people who have small homes/small kids/work better in work so I wouldn't like to see a situation where people were forced to work from home.

2. We realise that we can have the current levels of clean air and low noise on our roads, even during rush hour traffic, if we just stop buying petrol/diesel cars.

There’s a real opportunity here, while the vast improvements in (certain areas of) quality-of-life are fresh in everyone’s minds!

I hope they don't do anything stupid like banning diesel cars from cities. I have a 10 year old diesel car but I cycle into work so I fill my car with fuel about once every 6 weeks. Therefore my cars additional carbon footprint is tiny. If I am forced to buy a new car the additional carbon footprint will be massive and take decades to cancel out, if ever.

 

[roker]

My wife and I both drive EVs, absolutely love them and once you get used to how quick they are, the smoothness of the drive, the quietness, waking up to a ‘full tank’ every morning, not going to petrol stations every few days, the low cost, the sturdy feel of the cars (the heavy battery means even a small car feels chunky, like that typical German luxury brand feel) etc there is no going back, ever.

There’s no doubt that you need to choose an EV that suits your needs, if you drive 50000km a year, all on the motorway, or you live in an apartment so cannot get a home charger, you probably should not be buying an EV yet.

To your questions -
1. Within 3-4 weeks you learn the range of the car and this mostly goes away. Queuing anxiety at chargers is much more real, because right not the charging network is a bit overburdened, but the ESB and Ionity are doing big roll-outs as we speak to fix this.

2. If you have home charging then you will hopefully be doing 95%+ of your charging at home, so the charging network is not a major deal, and as I say is about to improve very significantly.

3. I’d say no and no. We want people to use chargers then move their cars so others can get in there, so both charging and parking should come at a cost.

4. The 24kWh Leafs are incredible value if you just want to drive around the city with the very odd longer journey. €10k would get you a low mileage high spec 2014 capable of 120km per charge. The Ionia also gets very good reports. If you have more money to throw around, then the newer generation (Leaf+, Kona, eNiro, Tesla Model3) will all do 3-400km and are either available or will be by the summer, in the €35-45k price range.



The 0% BIK, Accelerated Capital Allowance Scheme and partial VAT rebate make EVs very attractive as company cars FWIW.

as the battery age your range will decrease. How much is a bank of new batteries? how can you tell the condition on a 2and hand purchase?

 

[Zenith63]

as the battery age your range will decrease. How much is a bank of new batteries? how can you tell the condition on a 2and hand purchase?

Yes range decreases as the battery health decreases. But this is really only a concern in Nissan Leafs (mostly older models, the newer larger battery models do not cycle as often so fare much better) where the battery chemistry is not great and they are not thermally managed.

In all the modern EVs you’re seeing cars after 4/5 years with 100k on the clock still close to 100% battery health. Honestly it's just an urban myth that you need to factor in replacing the battery in an EV into the cost - if you're the kind of person who buys a car to run it for 20 years and 500k then yes, but that is an absolute edge case. The reality for most people is buying a car and selling it 4-5 years later, at which point it may have lost 2-5% of its range which will be factored into the resale value, and not heavily when you think a 400km range car might have only dropped to 390km.

If you did happen to want to replace the battery in one of the older Leafs, there are people doing it in Ireland now for ~€6k which gets you a battery back double the capacity of the old one so virtually double the range. But again battery replacement is just not something to worry about. The "real" concerns with EVs are can you charge it easily (home/work), initial cost (they're expensive new) and what range do you need regularly (if you're a sales guy covering all Ireland and doing 3000km a week then it may be a challenge), in every other way they are vastly superior to petrol/diesel cars and you will love driving one.

 

[Blackrock1]

sharing a post i did on a thread on boards regarding my initial experience with a new EV, Audi Etron (50 variant)

The trip was a 370km spin from Dublin to Sneem in Kerry via mallow. Check on ABRP and the guidance was to stop at ionity cashel and charge to near full. i was a little worried about what to do when i got to parknasilla but when i called the hotel they said they would have outdoor plugs that i could use, and it turns out ESB have an AC point in sneem village as well.

First thing to note is that as a family car the etron excels, the boot space is really great, over 600litres and a very large amount under the boot floor aswell once you remove the polysterene spacer where a spare wheel could go. i got a weeks worth of grocery shopping, a laptop back and a few other bits under there, and in the main boot itself i got too massive suitcases and a buggy, scooter and a few other smaller bags, it really excelled.

onto the trip it self, we had 4 in the car and a packed boot, it was 190k give or take to cashel and i left home with a full battery, when i got there it indicated circa 40k range left. So first lesson, the e-tron is very inefficient, even more so at motorway speeds with extra weight! There was also some wind and rain that day (last sat 22 Aug)

In cashel the Ionity chargers were working well and 3 of the 4 stalls were free (i-pace as charging when i got there) the cable location isnt ideal for an etron as you need to pull right up to the unit and keep in right to the left of your parking space as the DC port is on the drivers side, after a little back and forth i got there, the cables are short and pretty rigid, id worry a little about my wife doing it on her own. once plugged in it was fine, used my audi charging sub, 31c a kwh, charged at 118 kw/h for when i was looking at it (etron 50 maxes at 120 v 150 for the 55) and charged the car to full in around 38 min (the e-tron maintains a pretty high charging rate from 80-100, i think circa 50 kw/h). We took the kids into mcdonalds and the car was charged completely 5 minutes before we were done.

Next part of the journey was another circa 200k but with less motorway, and when we got there i was showing 60k of range left so efficiency improved at lower than motorway speeds. We plugged into a granny charger when we got there which was handy, only charged at 2.1kw per hour but the first few days we werent driving too far so allowed me to get it back up near full and keep it topped up for the trip home.

Trip home was the same but in reverse, again no issues with ionity at all, working well and fast speeds.

with two small kids i would have needed a half way break of at least 45min anyway so the journey didnt take any longer in an EV.

i would definitely be much more confident about longer trips now, just need to make a plan and a back up plan, to be fair we do about 10k km annually and most of it is local so its only a consideration a half dozen times in the year.

Some stats:

Trip to Kerry 22 Aug
Distance Driven 370km
Speeds 71km/h
Consumption 26.3 KWH/100km

Trip to dublin 29 Aug
Distance Driven 365km
Speeds 80km/h
Consumption 25.4 KWH/100km

Total consumption over 1,860 KM so far 26.2KWH/100km which gives an expected range of 250k which is a little less than i thought! But in summary no regrets so far, as a family car it really suits us.

 

[Buddyboy]

Some stats: Kerry 22 Aug
Distance Driven 370km
Speeds 71km/h
Consumption 26.3 KWH/100km

Trip to dublin 29 Aug
Distance Driven 365km
Speeds 80km/h
Consumption 25.4 KWH/100km

Total consumption over 1,860 KM so far 26.2KWH/100km which gives an expected range of 250k which is a little less than i thought! But in summary no regrets so far, as a family car it really suits

Hi Blackrock1. Did you work out the cost savings v's petrol over the trip?

 

[Blackrock1]

Hi Blackrock1. Did you work out the cost savings v's petrol over the trip?

not really but i spent 30 quid on fast charging and did 846km in total between the trip up and down and driving when there.

My last car did around 600km on a fill costing roughly 90 quid so maybe 100 euro cheaper give or take?

 

[Sadim]

not really but i spent 30 quid on fast charging and did 846km in total between the trip up and down and driving when there.

My last car did around 600km on a fill costing roughly 90 quid so maybe 100 euro cheaper give or take?

Fantastic insight there Blackrock1, really appreciated. I am considering EV myself too. Up to 3 years ago I had an 80 mile round trip daily commute so, EVs were not the solution. These days if I clock up 30 - 40 miles a week plus a a 50 mile round trip to see my father in the Midlands that would be a typical week. Yes, there are 2 - 3 trips to Castlebar a year and only recently went to Baltimore in Cork for a few days but they are the outliers and a bit of planning ahead should cater for those trips. Mind, not too many hotels have charging stations. eTron is a lovely motor but I would say my budget might struggle to get to the Leaf!

I am fascinated with the whole transition to EVs and I think the matter will be accelerated further when:
a) The Greens put in a few sweeteners in the October budget, has to be significant though not just tipping around the edges.
b) Manufacturers push out more models with better batteries to lengthen the range
c) Public charging infrastructure is drastically ramped up

 

[Blackrock1]

Fantastic insight there Blackrock1, really appreciated. I am considering EV myself too. Up to 3 years ago I had an 80 mile round trip daily commute so, EVs were not the solution. These days if I clock up 30 - 40 miles a week plus a a 50 mile round trip to see my father in the Midlands that would be a typical week. Yes, there are 2 - 3 trips to Castlebar a year and only recently went to Baltimore in Cork for a few days but they are the outliers and a bit of planning ahead should cater for those trips. Mind, not too many hotels have charging stations. eTron is a lovely motor but I would say my budget might struggle to get to the Leaf!

I am fascinated with the whole transition to EVs and I think the matter will be accelerated further when:
a) The Greens put in a few sweeteners in the October budget, has to be significant though not just tipping around the edges.
b) Manufacturers push out more models with better batteries to lengthen the range
c) Public charging infrastructure is drastically ramped up

thanks hopefully its useful real world experience for someone!

I think incentives are pretty generous at the moment though, i dont see them increasing, 10k off in grants, 600 grant for charger, 120 tax and toll discounts.

New models are coming, vw id3 due next week on the roads, skoda have theirs coming aswell.

Infastructure is getting there, much better than it was a year ago

 

[PGF2016]

sharing a post i did on a thread on boards regarding my initial experience with a new EV, Audi Etron (50 variant)

The trip was a 370km spin from Dublin to Sneem in Kerry via mallow. Check on ABRP and the guidance was to stop at ionity cashel and charge to near full. i was a little worried about what to do when i got to parknasilla but when i called the hotel they said they would have outdoor plugs that i could use, and it turns out ESB have an AC point in sneem village as well.

First thing to note is that as a family car the etron excels, the boot space is really great, over 600litres and a very large amount under the boot floor aswell once you remove the polysterene spacer where a spare wheel could go. i got a weeks worth of grocery shopping, a laptop back and a few other bits under there, and in the main boot itself i got too massive suitcases and a buggy, scooter and a few other smaller bags, it really excelled.

onto the trip it self, we had 4 in the car and a packed boot, it was 190k give or take to cashel and i left home with a full battery, when i got there it indicated circa 40k range left. So first lesson, the e-tron is very inefficient, even more so at motorway speeds with extra weight! There was also some wind and rain that day (last sat 22 Aug)

In cashel the Ionity chargers were working well and 3 of the 4 stalls were free (i-pace as charging when i got there) the cable location isnt ideal for an etron as you need to pull right up to the unit and keep in right to the left of your parking space as the DC port is on the drivers side, after a little back and forth i got there, the cables are short and pretty rigid, id worry a little about my wife doing it on her own. once plugged in it was fine, used my audi charging sub, 31c a kwh, charged at 118 kw/h for when i was looking at it (etron 50 maxes at 120 v 150 for the 55) and charged the car to full in around 38 min (the e-tron maintains a pretty high charging rate from 80-100, i think circa 50 kw/h). We took the kids into mcdonalds and the car was charged completely 5 minutes before we were done.

Next part of the journey was another circa 200k but with less motorway, and when we got there i was showing 60k of range left so efficiency improved at lower than motorway speeds. We plugged into a granny charger when we got there which was handy, only charged at 2.1kw per hour but the first few days we werent driving too far so allowed me to get it back up near full and keep it topped up for the trip home.

Trip home was the same but in reverse, again no issues with ionity at all, working well and fast speeds.

with two small kids i would have needed a half way break of at least 45min anyway so the journey didnt take any longer in an EV.

i would definitely be much more confident about longer trips now, just need to make a plan and a back up plan, to be fair we do about 10k km annually and most of it is local so its only a consideration a half dozen times in the year.

Some stats:

Trip to Kerry 22 Aug
Distance Driven 370km
Speeds 71km/h
Consumption 26.3 KWH/100km

Trip to dublin 29 Aug
Distance Driven 365km
Speeds 80km/h
Consumption 25.4 KWH/100km

Total consumption over 1,860 KM so far 26.2KWH/100km which gives an expected range of 250k which is a little less than i thought! But in summary no regrets so far, as a family car it really suits us.

Good read. Why the Audi over a Tesla? (apologies if you've already posted this information).

 

[Blackrock1]

Good read. Why the Audi over a Tesla? (apologies if you've already posted this information).

Honestly?

two main reasons, i have driven german cars for around 15 years now, the fit and finish of tesla doesnt do it for me, and secondly the only one that would really work for me is the model x, and its too expensive and i dont like the styling.

 

[Itchy]

Was in Dingle two weeks ago. A Dublin reg Model S and iPace, and a GB reg model X were in our hotel carpark. (Model S had the granny cable running in the window!). @Blackrock1 great review!

 

[Black_Knight]

Was in Dingle two weeks ago. A Dublin reg Model S and iPace, and a GB reg model X were in our hotel carpark. (Model S had the granny cable running in the window!). @Blackrock1 great review!

Gotta do what you gotta do.

Infrastructure is certainly getting better (well it shouldn't be getting worse, should it?) but it's slow going. Fast chargers are fairly scattered all over the country, though north of the Dublin-Galway line things get a little sparse, and tourist areas have very little in terms of fast charging; Kerry has 1 fast charger. West of Galway there's nothing. Trips out to any of the headlands in Cork could be tense - Bandon is your closest fast charger. Slow chargers are scattered around these areas, but even with fees, some still occupy them for many many hours so there's a certain amount of fear of being stranded.

The majority of fast chargers are a single point of failure too. 1 unit, no backup, and being available doesn't always guarantee it's working - recently heard the Cashel unit was only working for cars who use the CHAdeMO plug, but ESB left the CCS plug reporting as available. I've much less fear now of arriving at an in use or broken charger than a year ago, but I use them very infrequently so i'm not best placed to judge.

Hotels are getting better at adding charge points, or even 3 pin sockets to use, and that'll ramp up as demand drives it. Anyone with an EV will most certainly be looking for accommodation which can provide charging facilities.

 

[Slim]

Is it possible to carry a small, petrol, generator that would charge the EV in am emergency?

 

[Zenith63]

Is it possible to carry a small, petrol, generator that would charge the EV in am emergency?

Yes, though it would be fairly slow. Some cars, like the BMW i3 REX actually come with a small petrol engine under the bonnet that does exactly this; run only when needed to charge the battery up, but the car is driven by the electric motors at all times.

Honestly though there really wouldn't ever be a need for this. Moving to electric you go from the few thousand petrol pumps we have to tens of millions of electricity sockets all over the country that you can just plug in if you need to. Petrol stations are shutting down left-right-and-centre already, as more of the market shifts to electric vehicles this is only going to accelerate and the question people will be asking then is "If I go for this petrol, where will I fill it up, my local station is a 45 minute drive away?".