election 2020 trump v who

The betting markets were aligned with the polls in 2016 and both got the result wrong

Fair point. I think I recall on the eve of election Trump out to around 4/1 Clinton 1/5 on the betfair exchange.

My question is really why are the betting markets so out of kilter with the polls and in particular what has changed to bring Trump in from 2/1 against to even money in a week, with no shift in polls?

You have offered some factors that may contribute to this distortion which I agree, but I think there would have to be something more substantial. I looked at the betfair exchange this morning - €77,741,2017 worth of bets matched already on this market. That is what I call a tight market, and yes, it points to something fundamentally askew (again) with polling data.

My main guess, is that the traditional polling data is becoming obselete, or less relevant, being eaten up by the internet and the emergence of social media. Traditionally, everyone got their news from a handful of mainstream media outlets. Those outlets, generally, gave scant time for what were considered 'minor' or 'fringe' views. Nowadays, anyone can have a multitude of views and opinions ranging across a huge variance of issues posted on their media stream. In turn, discovering what they may have considered 'fringe' views are actually more mainstream - the whole 'fake news' debate is nothing more than mainstream news, and in turn the traditional polling data, losing control of the narrative.
There has always been fake news, I grew up being advised of the maxim "don't believe everything you read in the newspapers", that's because my elders understood that the mainstream media were as capable of peddling fake news, propaganda, cover-ups etc as well as anyone - Bloody Sunday in Derry, Hillsborough disaster, WMD to name a few.

You can observe this in this country. Anyone with media feed on their smartphone can plug into the views of Gemma O'Doherty, John Waters, Jim Corr. While some of their views are outlandish to me, they do attract a following and that following is emboldened by the fact that increasing numbers are beginning to share some of those views, views that get scant time on traditional mainstream outlets. The offer by Claire Byrne to host a 'debate' between Jim Corr and Jedward on their 'Twitter spat' gives credence to the dismissive nature that traditional mainstream outlets do have for alternative viewpoints. Regardless of what anyone thinks of these 'fringe' views, the people who propagate them are deadly serious about them and hold a conviction about them. I would suggest it is a dangerous thing to dismiss or deride anyone's personal convictions. But unfortunately this is what is happening here, just as it is happening in the US. For instance, CNN alluding to recent social unrest and rioting being the work of Russia rather than social injustice, police brutality, etc. CNN peddling the Russia spooks theory feeds into Trumps narrative of mainstream media fake news.

The Director Michael Moore, warned in 2016 against all the polling data, that Trump was on course to win. He did so based on his own observations in his own State of Michigan which is traditionally Democrat, that people were angry. He is giving the same warning again today. Trump support is off the charts.

Another factor you're not taking into account - betting odds are driven more by the flow of money rather than attempting to predict. So you'd need to question why there is a roughly even amount of money being put on Trump.

That's a fair point, but looking at the Betfair Exchange mentioned earlier, the market has been open for a couple of years with 20-30 prospective runners taking bets (including my own long-shot Tulsi Gabbard bets!).
Out of €77m bets matched, 56% are attributable to bets on Trump, 33% on Biden and 11% the rest of the field.
 
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My main guess, is that the traditional polling data is becoming obselete, or less relevant, being eaten up by the internet and the emergence of social media. ...in turn the traditional polling data, losing control of the narrative.
I am trying to understand the betting. I have no doubt that if the election was tomorrow Trump would be at least 20/1 based on current polls.
Yes all the social media stuff is affecting the way folk make up their minds but a poll is a poll. The betting markets clearly do not think that today's polls are a reliable indication of people's views in 2 months' time, but I think they would accept that they are a fair representation of their current views.
They think it is all up for grabs. I have mentioned a few possible game changers in Trump's favour between now and polling day. There may also be the view that he is not beyond dirty tricks. Maybe take out another Iranian general or a faux trade dispute with China.
 
The betting markets clearly do not think that today's polls are a reliable indication of people's views in 2 months' time, but I think they would accept that they are a fair representation of their current views.

I agree with the first part, I disagree with the second part.

From the FT link that you posted earlier

"With just over two months to go before the US presidential election, former vice-president Joe Biden, the Democratic party’s nominee, is polling ahead of incumbent Republican president Donald Trump in key battleground states, though he has seen his lead narrow in some states since the summer. In Wisconsin, where Mr Trump won by a razor thin margin in 2016, Mr Biden currently holds a 5 point lead. In Florida, where Covid cases remain high, Mr Biden also leads Mr Trump by about 5 percentage points. Mr Biden has a narrow lead in Arizona, a state only one Democratic presidential candidate has won in the past 70 years, and an even narrower one in North Carolina, which has voted Republican in nine out of the last 10 presidential elections. In Texas, the difference in poll numbers between the two men is less than 5 percentage points, also suggesting a close race in November in the quintessential red state."


My understanding is that leading into the last election in these key States, HC was polling a greater lead than Biden is now - that is not a good omen.
As mentioned, Michael Moore, who called a Trump win in 2016 against all the polls, is sounding the alarm bells again.
And as for the senior moments, here is last nights one, talking in an empty room with a pre-script about Covid19.

Biden Covid

The polls, whatever way they are conducted are now not considered reliable. There is two months to go, Trump will dominate the airwaves relative to Biden as he is clearly not capable. Moves are already afoot not to have any debates. Just from my perspective the Democratic campaign is extremely limp. They attack Trump the person (rightly) but what else do they do? They are not offering anything of any real substance to the people who are struggling, protesting, rioting, marginalised etc...other than vague platitudes presented by an insider establishment figure, a former VP for 8yrs to the President that preceded the election of Trump.
 
I agree with the first part, I disagree with the second part.
To be clear, the "second part" was that they (the betting markets) think polls are a good indicator at a point in time and therefore if the election was tomorrow, Trump would be very long odds against indeed. I think what you are saying is that you don't think polls are a reliable indicator of opinion even at the time when they were conducted. Fair enough, but I am trying to tease out why the markets are not heeding the polls.

That cringeworthy clip of Biden convinces me that it is the debates that the markets see as having the potential to sink Biden's current lead in the polls.
Why oh why did the Democrats go for Biden?
 
And as for the senior moments, here is last nights one, talking in an empty room with a pre-script about Covid19.
Biden Covid

That clip was curious... was the video feed interrupted or was the teleprompter dodgy... it seemed like more than a senior moment or tripping over a word:
"Covid has taken this year, just since the outbreak, has taken more than 100 year, look, here's, the lives, it's just, when you think about it."

It was one piece of a long speech, I wonder if it's just an eyesight v teleprompter thing, he seemed to be squinting a bit:
 
@WolfeTone great post above really explains what's going on with polling and how it's no longer of much relevance. In any case during the brexit referendum both the polls and the betting pointed to brexit being rejected, both were wrong and some people lost a lot of money on that because there were some very big bets backing rejection of brexit.
Another thing not mentioned is that its over 50years since a non sitting former vice president was elected as president that man being Nixon in 1968, and he only won the election because Lyndon Johnson unexpectedly decided not to run for a second term.
 
It was one piece of a long speech, I wonder if it's just an eyesight v teleprompter thing, he seemed to be squinting a bit:

It could be, I would be willing to give the benefit of the doubt if he didn't have form in this regard. Unfortunately, it is not the only moment where he appears to lose the run of his thoughts.
 
It could be, I would be willing to give the benefit of the doubt if he didn't have form in this regard. Unfortunately, it is not the only moment where he appears to lose the run of his thoughts.

If he has one of those moments in a debate, it will be costly... not sure if it's really a senior moment or, as you note, he has always been prone to trip over his words. But most people will think the former.
 
I think what you are saying is that you don't think polls are a reliable indicator of opinion even at the time when they were conducted. Fair enough, but I am trying to tease out why the markets are not heeding the polls.

My inkling is that traditional methods of compiling polling data are becoming less relevant due to the onset of internet and social media. I also think that the betting markets are seeing that too.
At the end of the day, this is a two-horse race between red and blue. If you were to follow the mainstream media narrative then the odds would look more as you have suggested. But like I have said, traditional MSM is losing control of the narrative of what is for public discourse. The Democratic base is rising up to police brutality, social injustice, healthcare costs, education costs, low-pay, high rents, etc...etc...and the likes of CNN just want to talk about Russia! People are not falling for it.


Why oh why did the Democrats go for Biden?

My sentiments exactly.
 
Because there was no real alternative. That in itself is worrying but really, who else could they have chosen who wasn't going to frighten away the swing voters?

Tulsi Gabbard.
Young, a US patriot, intelligent, articulate, composed, and with an agenda that was full on center about ending regime wars, reducing healthcare and educational costs etc.
She didn't fit into HC controlled DNC. That's why HC tried to label her as a puppet for Russia (what a farce), an Assad apologist (another farce) and then after Gabbard effectively eliminating Harris from the campaign during one the debates, the DNC changed the rules to ensure Gabbard would be eliminated from the debates. Instead Harris is now running as VP!
 
Tulsi Gabbard.
Young, a US patriot, intelligent, articulate, composed, and with an agenda that was full on center about ending regime wars, reducing healthcare and educational costs etc.
She didn't fit into HC controlled DNC. That's why HC tried to label her as a puppet for Russia (what a farce), an Assad apologist (another farce) and then after Gabbard effectively eliminating Harris from the campaign during one the debates, the DNC changed the rules to ensure Gabbard would be eliminated from the debates. Instead Harris is now running as VP!
Yea, I liked Gabbard as well. She ticks the Military service box but she's a Hindu and that's just one step away from being a Moslem; fire guns in the air, stoke fear and imply she's not a real American. (Moslem is the bigots spelling for Muslim).
 
Tulsi Gabbard.
Young, a US patriot, intelligent, articulate, composed, and with an agenda that was full on center about ending regime wars, reducing healthcare and educational costs etc.
She didn't fit into HC controlled DNC. That's why HC tried to label her as a puppet for Russia (what a farce), an Assad apologist (another farce) and then after Gabbard effectively eliminating Harris from the campaign during one the debates, the DNC changed the rules to ensure Gabbard would be eliminated from the debates. Instead Harris is now running as VP!
Wiki said:
Gabbard is vegan[243] and, as a Hindu, follows Gaudiya Vaishnavism.[45] She describes herself as a karma yogi.[244] She values the Bhagavad Gita as a spiritual guide[245] and took the oath of office in 2013 using her personal copy,
Call me narrow minded, but no that would not be my choice for leader of the Western World.
 
Tough to choose between worshippers of the the elephant god and the moneky god, or the man nailed to a cross.
All just different brands of crazy. It's a case of I won't vote for you because your invisible friend is different to mine.
 
It could be, I would be willing to give the benefit of the doubt if he didn't have form in this regard. Unfortunately, it is not the only moment where he appears to lose the run of his thoughts.

Why don't you link to the original source - the link you provided isn't reliable. RNC have been posting doctored video over the last few days so I would suggest looking at the original source instead of "Trump War Room" or such like

You have long advocated Gabbard. But she was never electable and wasn't really even a Democrat.
 
Why don't you link to the original source - the link you provided isn't reliable. RNC have been posting doctored video over the last few days so I would suggest looking at the original source instead of "Trump War Room" or such like

This is from C-SPAN, start watching at 13 minutes.
 
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