I hadn't seen the subsidy statistics painted so starkly...
I just wonder is there anything those stats could be missing... are those intercity rail lines used for cargo \ goods transport? If so, do they pay their own way or are they subsidised also?
No, DART could and should be run without a loss.
Commuter train services can and should be run without making a loss.
Irish Rail handles 42 million passenger journeys a year and get nearly 5 times that in State subsidies. That is excluding funding for infrastructure.
There is no economic case for an intercity rail service in this country.
No, DART could and should be run without a loss.
Commuter train services can and should be run without making a loss.
...but there is absolutely no argument for running any trains in this country.
Only if they can be run without a State subsidy for day to day costs.So you are for running some trains and have backtracked somewhat on your quote from a couple of days ago
No, the rail line (Capital) subsidy is separate. It's an extra €26 million last year and €11 million this year.The figures between rail and bus subsidies are slightly misleading because the rail subsidies include the cost of the rail line, but I expect that the bus subsidies do not include the (harder to quantity) cost of bus lanes.
Bus lanes are not exclusively used by buses e.g. out of hours cars use them or at junctions, and emergency vehicles. But I think their current primary function is economically beneficial to Dublin Bus.
This would not be a "day to day cost" therefore I think it still reasonable for you to argue that bus services in Dublin could be run without a State subsidy for day to day costs.
Further - it should be used as a counter argument if people respond that the State is abandoning public transport.
They are probably more efficient and have less waste and so can offer the same services for a lower price.
Well that's up to the new company to determine. It has been stated that existing services will stay the same and so to will prices. If the new company were happy to bid for this business it just goes to show how they think they can make money on such quieter routes.
That argument can be made to provide any public service or utility free at the point of consumption.
Every Irish water customer is also a tax payer (although only 30% are net contributors) so they shouldn't have to pay for water
Every ESB/Energy company customer is also a tax payer (although only 30% are net contributors) so they shouldn't have to pay for energy.
How about motorists; they are tax payers, should they get their petrol/diesel for free or heavily subsidised?
While we are giving people water for free why not give everyone food as well?
Not just a set amount they need to live on but as much food as they want. Sure isn't food essential for life? It's a human right!
Same goes for houses; the government should just give everyone a house too
not just anywhere though, it will have to be where they want it to be or else they will move out, say they are living in their car with their kids and RTE and the tabloids will run sob-stories about them...
You are missing a couple of points here. First, the number of (income) taxpayers (excluding VAT for the moment) is shockingly low in Ireland. Second, the number of passengers actually paying for using public transport is probably leven lower.
"Minuscule amount" must clearly be a joke I am not getting. Monthly / annual tickets are insanely expensive for what you get, compared with similar sized European cities. I guess somebody must pay for all the free travel passes.
In Vienna, for example, the yearly ticket covering all available modes of public transport costs 365 euro.
Yes, 1 euro per day for unlimited travel on any public transport system in all of the city (into some suburbs). That is all tubes, trams, busses, trains.
Stuttgart, to use another example, has some zone based systems but has yearly tickets starting at around 650 euro. Again, *all vailable* public transport types.
Paris: 827 euro for the most expensive one.
In Dublin, if you want / need a ticket for bus / luas / dart it will set you back 2180 euro. 2.5 times more expensive than Paris. And that is for a service that is essentially really bad.
old ERSI report but it's a good one.
One of the real doozies is that Irish Rail spent €1.2 billion to reduce rail fatalities. The average fatality rate was 8 per decade so the cost per life saved is €150 million, assuming that it was 100% successful.
Like I said, they will have to cut costs. You assume they are already more efficient. Do you know how so?
You are avoiding the question. It was alleged, that on this particular route that buses were near empty 90% of the time.
Yet you quoted the NTA stating that service's will increase under this tender.
Between Go Ahead, NTA and your good yourself, how does it make any sense to increase services on a route that is, apparently, near empty 90% of the time?
Except Dublin Bus passengers don't get the service for free, do they?
Along with the taxes that they pay, like everyone else, they pay additional to that in bus fares, isn't that right?
Anyone who pays taxes (basically everyone, bar children), pays for the water system.
The 30% net contributors? Excuse my French, WTF?
If you are part of the “It’s my right” brigade then everything is an essential service and nobody other than “the rich” should pay for anything.Why shouldn't they pay? As a reminder, Dublin Bus passengers pay their taxes AND pay for consumption of the service. Who is getting anything for free?
Should they get it heavily subsidised?Not for free, no. Is there a point to this?
No I’m not. I’m pointing out the absurdity of such notions but having these discussions with a socialist is like talking to a creationist about evolution.You are wishing for an ideal world where everything is free. I'm afraid that is not the reality.
Sure, so how come the “It’s my right” brigade don’t want it given to everyone for free, just like water?It certainly is a human right. Article 25 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights, as decided, agreed and declared by...humans.
Yes? Excellent! Where do I sign up? I think I’ll quit my job too and get my food, water and transport for free because “It’s my right”.Yes.
For the sake of my family and social cohesion I need a house just like the one I’m in now in the same area. Just get “The Rich” to pay for it.No. If you are fussy about where and how big your house should be, then you should pay for it.
Notwithstanding legitimate cases of family and social cohesion.
The program wasn't about train derailment, it was about people getting hit by trains.But of course that report assumes that the only fatalities are those that have happened and (8) and doesn't consider the fatalities that will happen if safety is not kept up to high standard.
Do we have to wait for a train derailment before we invest in safety?
I quoted an article that in turn quoted the NTA. If the NTA are saying that the service will increase then you should really ask them. At a minimum services will stay the same and prices too. All with a lower cost to the taxpayer.
All you have done thus far is ask questions but you are clearly against this development. Care to outline why????
If they are getting more back in social transfer than they pay in taxes then no, they aren’t paying for anything.
Only the top 30% of earners are net contributors to the exchequer. The rest of us get more back than we pay in. You have posted on threads about that very topic. Did you forget or did you not understand the discussion?
If you are part of the “It’s my right” brigade then everything is an essential service and nobody other than “the rich” should pay for anything
Should they get it heavily subsidised?
No I’m not. I’m pointing out the absurdity of such notions
Sure, so how come the “It’s my right” brigade don’t want it given to everyone for free, just like water?
Yes? Excellent! Where do I sign up? I think I’ll quit my job too and get my food, water and transport for free because “It’s my right”.
For the sake of my family and social cohesion I need a house just like the one I’m in now in the same area. Just get “The Rich” to pay for it.
The program wasn't about train derailment, it was about people getting hit by trains.
We spent €1.2 billion of fences and signs...
Of course you can't criticise and public body or unionised workforce. I understand that.
Yes we have been through this nonsense before. We spend some €50bn a year, if we balance the books then the 3m or so taxpayers would have to contribute some €17,000 each per annum. Do you think that is feasible? I don't. A minimum wage job would have to increase to about €37,000. Not feasible.
So we have implemented a progressive income tax system to facilitate low tax on low income. We also have VAT, motor tax, property tax, bus fares etc.
You can go into the merits, or not, of the tax system. But low income tax rates on low incomes facilitate employers wanting competitive wage rates.
Read the link.In fairness I didn't read the full report and if what you are saying is correct, then I stand corrected. But I doubt €1.2bn was spent solely on fences and signs.
Nonsense? You numbers aren't correct.
Here's some details:
http://finance.gov.ie/sites/default/files/170104 Appendix I - Tax Receipts - end December 2016_0.pdf
Income Tax receipts for 2016: €19 billion (roughly) - that means a contribution of 6300 euro for the 3m or so taxpayers if everybody would pay.
Of course, the "bottom" 50% of earners contribute only 2.8%
[broken link removed]
VAT? Most Food stuff is zero rated, the rest (non-essential stuff!) is 13.5% . Children's clothing is zero rated. (OK - clothing for adults has VAT).
You get pretty far in this country without paying any significant amount of tax. And I'd say that many get more than that back via things like free travel passes, children's allowance, medical cards, etc
Taxation for people earning less than 35K (that is industrial average!) is close to non-existent in Ireland.
Read the link.
That example speaks to my issue with the whole discussion we have about Public Services and Taxation. We waste billion every year through waste, theft, duplication of services and gross inefficiency. I listened to a Hospital Consultant on the radio this morning. He agreed that Doctors unions, Nurses unions and public sector unions in general were at the heart of the problem in the health service. He said that they have to be tackled in order for things to be fixed.
We now see Dublin Bus outsourcing routes but not getting rid of any drivers. The end result of all of that waste is poverty, hardship and death and yet you and others like you, as well as the unionised media, will not brook any criticism of the people and organisations at the heart of our public services but instead look at everything from an ideological perspective, glibly defending the indefensible and attacking the same vague targets.
We as a State have been going around in circles for 30 years.
The bottom line is that public services should be run for the benefit of the public. Nothing else.
I don’t mind paying half my income in taxes. I resent the hell out of how little the people who take my hard earned money value it.
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