Dublin bus routes privatised.

[Firefly]

If company A can provide the same service and standards cheaper than company B and ticket fares remain the same for consumers, who benefits from the reduced costs?

Do you think that a private operated service charging the same fares, providing the same service will increase passenger numbers?

According to the NTA:

"Under the provisions of the tender, not only will service levels on the routes in question be maintained, they will actually be increased by about 35pc. So passengers in areas served by these routes have absolutely no reason to worry about this change. Matters such as fares, frequency and scheduling for the service will all be set by the NTA, and not the operator."

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...ntract-for-24-routes-in-capital-36021211.html

Perhaps you should ask them?

 

[Firefly]

Cheaper yellow pack staff

Why the use of such a derogatory term? If Bus Eireann drivers were described as something in a similar vein there would be an out-cry.

Also, given that existing BE staff will not lose their jobs and "work elsewhere" in the company, surely those of a left-leaning persuasion should be delighted as more jobs are being created?

 

[Firefly]

The cost to consumers v the cost to taxpayers. Invariably, they are the same people. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Can you please explain this? The NTA has stated that services will either stay the same or be increase and fares will remain unchanged. Where is the cost of the consumer?

 

[Purple]

I couldn't disagree more. People who use public transport already pay their fares and subsidise those that choose to use private cars to transport to work.

Every fair is subsidised through the State subsidy of Dublin Bus. How do they subsidise those who use private cars? The road infrastructure is funded through general taxation and everyone benefit from it whether they use the road or not.

I Public transport passengers reduce congestion on roads, reduce the likelihood of accidents, reduce carbon emissions

Are you sure about that? If our occupancy rates are similar to the UK then the emissions per passenger per Km travelled are 5 times higher for bus passengers than car passengers. Given the amount of road space given over to bus lanes I’m doubtful about how much busses reduce congestion. Again, I can’t find Dublin Bus data but in the linked article the average bus carried 2.3 passengers per Km travelled whereas the average car carried 1.2 passengers.

I and overall make a far greater contribution to the efficient running of the economy than any motorist does.

Where did you get that from?

The State should intervene to subsidise more public transport services in order to reduce reliance on congestive private transport.

Why not introduce a congestion charge in Dublin city centre? Motorists who use the M50 pay €2 each way to cross the Liffey. €5 to drive into the city centre would cause a bigger change in behaviour than an extra €0.50 subsidy on every bus journey.

A comment was made about a bus carrying only 5 passengers. But it wasn't stated how many passengers were being carried in the five cars (running 5 engines) that followed after the bus - perhaps only 5 passengers too.

Yea, but the bus has its own lane and if our occupancy rates are similar to the UK then on average during rush hour two cars = 1 bus.

 

[Purple]

Cheaper yellow pack staff

You mean staff being paid an open market rate?

 

[jjm]

You mean staff being paid an open market rate?

I think I read somewhere that wages would be the same to allow dublin bus drivers to transfer over ,

 

[odyssey06]

Why not introduce a congestion charge in Dublin city centre? Motorists who use the M50 pay €2 each way to cross the Liffey. €5 to drive into the city centre would cause a bigger change in behaviour than an extra €0.50 subsidy on every bus journey.
Yea, but the bus has its own lane and if our occupancy rates are similar to the UK then on average during rush hour two cars = 1 bus.

They don't need a new charge. Just have checkpoints checking every car coming into Dublin city centre for tax, insurance and NCT. You'll either see a drop off in traffic by 20% or a surge in revenues to the state coffers...


Maybe we should make the bus lane on key routes into the city centre 'car pool' lanes.
If you have a passenger, you can use them?

 

[Leo]

Can you please explain this?

I can only assume he meant what was going on before this change, robbing Peter the taxpayer to pay Paul the inefficient service provider.

 

[Delboy]

Why the use of such a derogatory term? If Bus Eireann drivers were described as something in a similar vein there would be an out-cry.

Also, given that existing BE staff will not lose their jobs and "work elsewhere" in the company, surely those of a left-leaning persuasion should be delighted as more jobs are being created?

As anyone on here familiar with my posts over the years would confirm, I am certainly not of the 'left'!

I recall when the waste industry was carved up in Dublin and privatised, workers were guaranteed their Corpo wages etc. That lasted for a few years and then Greyhound cut wages/benefits to 'market rates'. Strikes ensued but Greyhound won out.
And from what I can now see of the bin lorries in my area of Sth Dub, the workers seem to be exclusively young Eastern Europeans on much lower wages. How many of those now working there require FIS to top up those wages? And how many of the ex workers are on benefits/FIS also of some sort, too old to get new jobs etc?
Meanwhile Greyhound are incorporated in the Isle of Man and we cannot see their accounts/profits!

I was always pro-privatisation and while it may deliver some short term benefits in terms of reduced subsidies etc, the longer term impact in terms of low wages which the State have to then support through the benefits system, has some what changed my mind on these matters. Also the importation of cheaper labour from abroad puts pressure on housing, schools etc that the Govt then has to resolve at great cost.
Not all industries are suitable to privatisation IMO.

FYI- I think your mixing up BE with Dublin Bus.

 

[odyssey06]

And from what I can now see of the bin lorries in my area of Sth Dub, the workers seem to be exclusively young Eastern Europeans on much lower wages. How many of those now working there require FIS to top up those wages? And how many of the ex workers are on benefits/FIS also of some sort, too old to get new jobs etc?
Meanwhile Greyhound are incorporated in the Isle of Man and we cannot see their accounts/profits!
I was always pro-privatisation and while it may deliver some short term benefits in terms of reduced subsidies etc, the longer term impact in terms of low wages which the State have to then support through the benefits system, has some what changed my mind on these matters. Also the importation of cheaper labour from abroad puts pressure on housing, schools etc that the Govt then has to resolve at great cost.

While I share your concerns about bottoming of wages:
(a) Not all Dublin Bus workers are Irish though...
(b) If we are overpaying for bus drivers it will ultimately mean less money available for increasing the number buses\frequencies or fare reductions.

 

[Delboy]

While I share your concerns about bottoming of wages:
(a) Not all Dublin Bus workers are Irish though...
(b) If we are overpaying for bus drivers it will ultimately mean less money available for increasing the number buses\frequencies or fare reductions.

That's true but the current FG govt seems to want to get lower costs in public transport so as to reduce susbsidies, not to allow the companies to expand their timetables/fleets. Thats my reading of the current policies.

With regards to (a), yes that's true. But only a small % I would guess. I wonder how many in the waste industry today in Dublin are Irish?

 

[Firefly]

As anyone on here familiar with my posts over the years would confirm, I am certainly not of the 'left'!

Hi Delboy,

I didn't mean to infer you were of the left, it was just a general post aimed at those who were. The rest of your post is excellent, however without the facts to back it up one can only estimate the cost benefits on a macro scale.

 

[Firefly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVLjHE5NpzI

Released Aug 2nd too !

 

[Firefly]

I can only assume he meant what was going on before this change, robbing Peter the taxpayer to pay Paul the inefficient service provider.

I'm not sure. I took it that this is suggested would happen now that the routes have been privatised.

 

[Firefly]

@TheBigShort

The following is from an article in the Irish Times:

The National Transport Authority has gone to great pains to stress that the handover of 24 bus routes to British company Go-Ahead isn’t privatisation. The service would remain under NTA control, it would set fares and determine schedules, and the fleet would remain in State control.

It says nothing has been sold, services are not being deregulated, but rather a competitive public procurement process had resulted in “Meat” – or the Most Economically Advantageous Tender being chosen which, whatever unions may fear, doesn’t – the NTA says – pave the road to privatisation.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/con...ahead-getting-on-board-dublin-buses-1.3182936

Should you consider editing the title of this tread accordingly as according to the NTA, nothing has been privatised?

 

[jjm]

@TheBigShort

The following is from an article in the Irish Times:

The National Transport Authority has gone to great pains to stress that the handover of 24 bus routes to British company Go-Ahead isn’t privatisation. The service would remain under NTA control, it would set fares and determine schedules, and the fleet would remain in State control.

It says nothing has been sold, services are not being deregulated, but rather a competitive public procurement process had resulted in “Meat” – or the Most Economically Advantageous Tender being chosen which, whatever unions may fear, doesn’t – the NTA says – pave the road to privatisation.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/con...ahead-getting-on-board-dublin-buses-1.3182936

Should you consider editing the title of this tread accordingly as according to the NTA, nothing has been privatised?

35 post later and the penny drops at last,NTA wasting money and making jobs for there own we all know who will finish up paying for all the regulation involved in supervising this change,

 

[Purple]

As anyone on here familiar with my posts over the years would confirm, I am certainly not of the 'left'!

I recall when the waste industry was carved up in Dublin and privatised, workers were guaranteed their Corpo wages etc. That lasted for a few years and then Greyhound cut wages/benefits to 'market rates'. Strikes ensued but Greyhound won out.
And from what I can now see of the bin lorries in my area of Sth Dub, the workers seem to be exclusively young Eastern Europeans on much lower wages. How many of those now working there require FIS to top up those wages? And how many of the ex workers are on benefits/FIS also of some sort, too old to get new jobs etc?
Meanwhile Greyhound are incorporated in the Isle of Man and we cannot see their accounts/profits!

I was always pro-privatisation and while it may deliver some short term benefits in terms of reduced subsidies etc, the longer term impact in terms of low wages which the State have to then support through the benefits system, has some what changed my mind on these matters. Also the importation of cheaper labour from abroad puts pressure on housing, schools etc that the Govt then has to resolve at great cost.
Not all industries are suitable to privatisation IMO.

FYI- I think your mixing up BE with Dublin Bus.

The logical conclusion to your argument is to pay people above the market rate and keep them in jobs that are unnecessary so that they don't claim welfare.
The social safety net shouldn't be funded by businesses other than through the taxes they pay.

 

[jjm]

As anyone on here familiar with my posts over the years would confirm, I am certainly not of the 'left'!

I recall when the waste industry was carved up in Dublin and privatised, workers were guaranteed their Corpo wages etc. That lasted for a few years and then Greyhound cut wages/benefits to 'market rates'. Strikes ensued but Greyhound won out.
And from what I can now see of the bin lorries in my area of Sth Dub, the workers seem to be exclusively young Eastern Europeans on much lower wages. How many of those now working there require FIS to top up those wages? And how many of the ex workers are on benefits/FIS also of some sort, too old to get new jobs etc?
Meanwhile Greyhound are incorporated in the Isle of Man and we cannot see their accounts/profits!

I was always pro-privatisation and while it may deliver some short term benefits in terms of reduced subsidies etc, the longer term impact in terms of low wages which the State have to then support through the benefits system, has some what changed my mind on these matters. Also the importation of cheaper labour from abroad puts pressure on housing, schools etc that the Govt then has to resolve at great cost.
Not all industries are suitable to privatisation IMO.

FYI- I think your mixing up BE with Dublin Bus.

I would agree with Delboy , We need to be Questining more the managing of public services we pay top doller to the managers so the services should be superb,most front line services are superb it is the managing of our services with no responsibilty where we fall down,

 

[Leo]

I'm not sure. I took it that this is suggested would happen now that the routes have been privatised.

True. Then perhaps it's robbing Peter the overpaid Dublin Bus employee to pay Paul, the taxpayer.

 

[Firefly]

True. Then perhaps it's robbing Peter the overpaid Dublin Bus employee to pay Paul, the taxpayer.

Ah I wouldn't worry about Peter...he' won't lose out. He'll be deployed elsewhere in the company and probably get a few bob for his troubles.