Dr Strangelove
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Are you sure there’s even a handful?
Are you sure there’s even a handful?a handful of skilled IT folk in the Department
They are not all mathematical. There are a lot of ifs, and buts.What frustrates me is that all the rules around eligibility for State Contributory Pension, while complicated, are black-and-white mathematical rules
They are not all mathematical. There are a lot of ifs, and buts.
For instance contributions are not counted for the year of pension application under the averaging method, but if they are required to bring the applicant to the 520 minimum full rate contributions level they are counted. But there is no clarity if these extra contributions will also be included into the averaging calculation.
I have asked a series of questions relating to this and all the answers are vague.
In mathematics everything is precise. In Prsi land lots of things are loosely worded and it is practically impossible to get a precise answer as to how they operate.
Here is an example of a vague answer to a direct question.
Question.
If after applying can a person cancel their pension application if the calculated pension is not at the level they were expecting ?
Answer.
A pension cannot be deferred once it goes into payment.
No explanation as to what 'goes into payment' actually means.
Is it when the first payment is received into the applicants bank account.
Is it when the pension to be paid is set up on DSPs computer.
Is it when DSPs pensions electronic payment is set up to the applicants bank account.
Is it when the post office payment arrangement is set up.
Does this happen before, after or when the decision letter is dated.
Or is it something else.
I am no wiser after reading their answer.
This is just one of several questions I asked by email a few days ago.
Each vague answer leaves me in the same situation as before I asked the questions.
Not certain what the final pension calculation will be and not certain if the pension can be cancelled after the decision letter is sent out.
They would, indeed. But it shouldn’t have to come to that.I wonder would the Ombudsman - not the FSPO but Ger Deering (https://www.ombudsman.ie/making-a-complaint/who-we-can-investigate/) be able to intervene if a person was badly impacted by an irreversible decision along the lines of what you've posted above.
Might be of interest, I will be 66 in March 2025, so applied for my state contributory pension in September 2024.
This week, 6 weeks after applying, I got my decision letter.
I have been awarded the maximum contributory state pension with first payment to be in my account in March 2025.
I have no reason to appeal the decision but if I did want the decision reviewed or wanted to appeal, all was explained with timelines in the decision letter.
As the first payment is not until March 2025, there is also plenty of time to cancel my application, if I wanted to.
For me anyway, as a fairly straightforward case, it could not have been easier.
I had an equally good experience with the 65 year old payment. I applied online on my 65th birthday, got my decision letter 2 days later, and the first payment was in my account 7 days after applying.
All very efficient.
I totally agree @Freelance. I found the pursuance of my entitlement very frustrating and there were many times when I wanted to give up. Like you I had requested what pension I would have been entitled to a few years ago and also my homecaring periods and homemaker’s scheme. I was given the statutory response that I could review on the website and that they could not give me any forecast of my SCP and to apply in the year of my 66th birthday. It took me 22 months to get it sorted but I’m lucky that I was able to pursue it.@Fiddlybits Delighted that you got what you were entitled to. But it does show the need to be fully aware of the minefield that DSP have created and their generally take it or leave it attitude. You were fortunate that you had the confidence/energy to pursue your entitlement and had the considerable expertise that is available here on AAM at your disposal. One wonders how many are not so fortunate and loose out as a result.
The point blank refusal to provide estimates well in advance of payment is unfair, unreasonable and benefits nobody. It is rooted in the DSP's misguided perception of themselves as gatekeepers defending the public purse and treating all claimants as scroungers and potential fraudsters rather than a service organisation assisting their clients. This is typified by the statement "The onus is on the person to prove entitlement to BP65 and to produce any evidence reasonably required" in the Department's Operational Guidelines: Benefit Payment for 65 Year Olds.
I asked for an estimate/confirmation of entitlement for both my Over 65 Benefit and my State Pension Contributory some years back for planning purposes. This was refused, quite evasive and circuitously. My initial requests were all met with "you can review the scheme entitlements on our website" type responses and it was only on the third or forth fortright request that they actually admitted "It is not the policy of the department to provide estimates, your entitlements will be made known to you following your application".
In the case of my Over 65 Benefit payment when I did apply I was refused because of a stupid error on the part of DSP. Fortunately, I had the information I needed and a full audit trail of transactions and correspondence, together with excellent 3rd party advice and when I confronted the department they caved and "awarded" me my entitlements. The SPC was more straightforward as I had my records checked etc well in advance. My point is had I had an estimate some years in advance it would have allowed me good time to help the department correct their error rather than having to engage in last minute brinkmanship.
I heartily agree with the OP that estimates should be available to clients well in advance, in order to allow for proper financial planning, record checking and correction, query resolution etc. This is especially true given the convoluted and indecipherable mess that the some of the major schemes have been allowed to degenerate into.
It looks like the last complete tax year for PRSI contributions is considered... Is it for both calculations, the average and the TC method?Normally any Prsi contributions gained in this year are not counted. But in the case where they are needed to reach the minimum level of 520 full rate paid contributions, they are counted.
The last year can be complicated, I got the the linked text from DSP.It looks like the last complete tax year for PRSI contributions is considered... Is it for both calculations, the average and the TC method?
I got my German statement/forecast in the post last week. That is exactly the information contained on the first page in a big black box so you know exactly where you stand. This is really very important information that people need access to to help them properly fund their old age. The state is always reminding people to invest in a private pension but to do so effectively people should know what they can reasonably expect from decades of PRSI contributions.People should get an annual update with the following:
1) if you stop contributing today your pension would be €X.
2) if you continue contributing until age 66 your pension will be €Y.
Agree - I recently got my German statement too and it is very very clear. I was pleasantly surprised by how generous it is considering I only worked for 12 years in Germany (first job after college).I got my German statement/forecast in the post last week. That is exactly the information contained on the first page in a big black box so you know exactly where you stand. This is really very important information that people need access to to help them properly fund their old age. The state is always reminding people to invest in a private pension but to do so effectively people should know what they can reasonably expect from decades of PRSI contributions.
The German system is actually much more complicated behind the scenes too because the contributions lead to points being awarded (Entgeltpunkte). The value of these Entgeltpunkte is not linear like in Ireland. It changes with age, so making larger contributions later in life doesn't have the same effect of making those larger contributions early in the working life, because it is expected that as we get older and gain experience, we will earn more. The German system is at it's core based on how much under or over the national average salary you earn. Because of this, only a tiny percentage of German retirees are ever awarded the maximum possible pension (around 4k a month I think). A person would need to essentially leave school and land in a very well paid job almost immediately and that is very rare and usually only happens through family connections/wealth. The fact the German system can still calculate the expected pension based on current contributions (actually it's based on the previous 5 years of contributions) shows the Irish system up for what it is.