Do we need a new political party to represent responsible people?

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Sunny said:
At the very least we should be looking to legislate a debt brake like in Germany. Politicians have proven they are likes kids in a sweet shop so lets remove the temptation away from them....
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Just on this....do the EU rules on borrowing still apply? I think these were/are a godsend to be honest..
 
And that we have the Euro... if we had our own currency the capital outflows triggered from Sinn Fein's wealth task would be sending it plunging downwards.
 
Duke of Marmalade said:
Boss does your resettlement of the poorer classes to the nether regions not smack of ethnic cleansing?
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At the moment, a working young couple in their mid twenties who want to buy a house, will make huge sacrifices. They will save up hard. They might even live with their parents to save rent. They will defer having a child until they have bought a house. And they will probably buy the house in Dundalk or Gorey if they are working in Dublin. When they buy the house, they will pay VAT, a development levy and a social housing levy so that people who don't pay their own way can be housed.

On the other hand someone who depends on social welfare will declare themselves homeless and demand to be housed in their own community.

We need to reverse this. We need to say to people that if you want social housing, it will be close to where you work or if you are not working it will be commuting distance away. And if you get work in the future, you will qualify for housing close to where you work.

So it's not ethnic cleansing. It's reversing the negative incentives we have at the moment.

Brendan
 
john luc said:
Would changing the prsi/universal tax into a personnel health plan be a way to go.
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Yes. I summarised it by saying all PRSI should go into a pension fund in the person's name.

But put all PRSI and maybe USC into a pension fund. Then you pay for all the "social welfare" stuff out of that. Health, Jobseekers, pensions, nursing home.

A very big advantage of this is that we would all suddenly realise how expensive all this is.

We complain about paying high taxes. But over our lifetime , they are very low for low earners and middle income earners as the benefits they get surpass them.


Brendan
 
Brendan Burgess said:
At the moment, a working young couple in their mid twenties who want to buy a house, will make huge sacrifices. They will save up hard. They might even live with their parents to save rent. They will defer having a child until they have bought a house. And they will probably buy the house in Dundalk or Gorey if they are working in Dublin. When they buy the house, they will pay VAT, a development levy and a social housing levy so that people who don't pay their own way can be housed.
On the other hand someone who depends on social welfare will declare themselves homeless and demand to be housed in their own community.
We need to reverse this. We need to say to people that if you want social housing, it will be close to where you work or if you are not working it will be commuting distance away. And if you get work in the future, you will qualify for housing close to where you work.
So it's not ethnic cleansing. It's reversing the negative incentives we have at the moment.
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And, if you care about that kind of thing, place huge strain on our public transport system or clog up the roads with traffic and our carbon budget with emissions.
It's slow societal suicide. The people who are putting their shoulder to the wheel need a breather too.
 
House prices in Dublin are falling, rents are not increasing and housing completions are up 18% on last year. The excellent work done by the housing minister is paying off.
 
  1. We will cut taxes for people who work and cut social welfare for people who don't.
  2. We will convert the prsi paid by people and their employers into an account in their own name. Their retirement date and amount of pension will be determined by how much they have in their pension fund. People who have depended on social welfare their whole life will no longer get the same pensions and benefits in retirement as people who have worked all their life.
  3. Convert all public sector and politicians' pensions to generous defined contribution schemes
  4. We will prioritise low paid workers in the allocation of social housing. People who are not working will be allocated social housing wherever in the country it is cheapest to buy or build
  5. If people are not working, we will not give them rent assistance to live in a Rent Pressure Zone. We will only help them outside the high demand areas. This will bring down rents for everyone.
  6. The 10,000 people living on their own in 2,3 and 4 bed social houses will be asked to share with others or else vacate them.
  7. We will help people who want to provide their own housing rather than penalising them. We will abolish VAT, development levies and social housing requirements on starter homes. We will allow people to borrow the deposit for their first home from their pension fund.
  8. Instead of spending €450k to buy a privately built house for social housing, we will sell off high value social housing to the highest bidder and use the proceeds to build more social housing wherever it is cheapest.
  9. We will help people who are having difficulty with their mortgage payments who are making a serious effort to pay, but we will speed up the repossession of for those borrowers who are paying nothing and making no effort.
  10. We will stop demonising good landlords. Phase out rent controls as rents will fall when the state stops paying rent in RPZs for people who are not working. Limit the RTB to resolving disputes, but scrap all the other bureaucracy such as registering tenancies. Help tenants who have difficulty paying their rent, but evict tenants who make no effort.
  11. We admit that it's very difficult for the public service to run a good hospital system. And throwing public money at it hasn't worked.
  12. We will charge people for healthcare in a public hospital.
  13. We will encourage people who can afford it to pay for their own private healthcare and we won't demonise them for doing so.
  14. People who can afford to do so, should pay in full for their own carers and their own nursing homes.
  15. Take a big knife to cutting out whole departments and bodies which do nothing except
  16. Give the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council or the Central Bank the authority to set the overall budget policy - a budget deficit or budget surplus as they deem appropriate. The government would set its own tax and spending decisions within those limits.
Above was the opinion supplied by the Founder of this Forum.
1. How much taxes will you cut for people who work? How much Social Welfare award would you cut? What other Social Welfare awards would you cut?
2. What are the logistics of converting PRSI paid by employees and their employers into the name of each employee? Then you are going to dictate the date of retirement of each person. At what age do you see people retiring?
3. You want to convert all public sector and politicians' pension to generous defined contribution schemes. What amount do you suggest each pays?
4. You are going to export people who are not working to wherever you seem fit. Do you think this is doable?
5. You are going to refuse to give rent assistance to those unemployed who wish to live in Rent Pressure Zones. But, you will give rent assistance to those living outside of Rent Pressure Zones. I can't believe you posted this.
6. So, I'm living alone in the house I paid for over the years and you want me to be forced to accept people into my home of which I know nothing and of which I don't want.
7. So people buying their own homes will not have to pay VAT etc and their own pension fund will help pay for the property? Hmmmmm!
8. You're going to sell off existing social housing to the highest bidder and use the proceeds to build more houses where land etc can be purchased cheaper.
9.Please expand on how you will help those in difficulty in paying their mortgages. But, you're going to speed up repossessions too. Hmmmm!
10. Who ever demonised good landlords? You're going to phase out Rent Controls. And you say renting amounts will fall. You're going to cease registering tenancies. Hmmmmm! Then you'll evict some tenants - What criteria will you introduce for this?
11. What are you actually going to do regarding funding the Health Service?
12. How much will you charge people using public hospitals?
13. Most who can afford private healthcare already pay for it. How much more do you want them to pay and for what?
14. If people cannot to pay will you refuse them use of a Nursing Home or even the aid of carers?
15.Take a big knife . . . . Please amplify as you're losing my understanding.
16. You are going to give the authority to run the country over to the Central Bank. Wonderful! Do you trust the banks?

How long do you think this Responsible Political Party will last? Has any of this been tried elsewhere? Do you envisage the formation of official death squads eventually?
 
I'd agree with about 80% of the manifesto...there's 1 or 2 things n there that would hit me personally so I'm a No to them ;)
I'd be very weary of moving all those on the dole and who are looking for housing to the area where it cheapest. Leitrim would be a no go zone!

I'd add in something on children's allowance. Payable only for the first 2 children with tax credits awarded for the 3rd child and up.
Also, would greatly increase time off for Mothers and paternity leave. We should be encouraging and rewarding those in work who decide to have kids.
I've seen too many friends leave it too late to have kids because of high housing and childcare costs and they've ended up having only 1 or sometimes 2 kids.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
I was appalled by the last government's reckless financial management. With the economy booming, artificially high corporation tax takes, low unemployment, we just about managed to balance the government's books. We made no progress on reducing government debt. They have committed to wasting billions on rural broadband when we will need those people to build houses. And they introduced rent controls when they knew that would reduce the supply of rental accommodation. They made an unsustainable pension system worse by extending it to self-employed people who contribute 4% a year in PRSI.

But Fianna Fáil wouldn't have been any more responsible. They insisted on higher pension payments when the pensions system is already unsustainable.

So we ended up with an election characterised by auction politics. And Sinn Féin won the auction by outbidding the others with borrowed money.

I would like to vote for a party which says
  1. We will cut taxes for people who work and cut social welfare for people who don't.
  2. We will convert the prsi paid by people and their employers into an account in their own name. Their retirement date and amount of pension will be determined by how much they have in their pension fund. People who have depended on social welfare their whole life will no longer get the same pensions and benefits in retirement as people who have worked all their life.
  3. Convert all public sector and politicians' pensions to generous defined contribution schemes
  4. We will prioritise low paid workers in the allocation of social housing. People who are not working will be allocated social housing wherever in the country it is cheapest to buy or build
  5. If people are not working, we will not give them rent assistance to live in a Rent Pressure Zone. We will only help them outside the high demand areas. This will bring down rents for everyone.
  6. The 10,000 people living on their own in 2,3 and 4 bed social houses will be asked to share with others or else vacate them.
  7. We will help people who want to provide their own housing rather than penalising them. We will abolish VAT, development levies and social housing requirements on starter homes. We will allow people to borrow the deposit for their first home from their pension fund.
  8. Instead of spending €450k to buy a privately built house for social housing, we will sell off high value social housing to the highest bidder and use the proceeds to build more social housing wherever it is cheapest.
  9. We will help people who are having difficulty with their mortgage payments who are making a serious effort to pay, but we will speed up the repossession of for those borrowers who are paying nothing and making no effort.
  10. We will stop demonising good landlords. Phase out rent controls as rents will fall when the state stops paying rent in RPZs for people who are not working. Limit the RTB to resolving disputes, but scrap all the other bureaucracy such as registering tenancies. Help tenants who have difficulty paying their rent, but evict tenants who make no effort.
  11. We admit that it's very difficult for the public service to run a good hospital system. And throwing public money at it hasn't worked.
  12. We will charge people for healthcare in a public hospital.
  13. We will encourage people who can afford it to pay for their own private healthcare and we won't demonise them for doing so.
  14. People who can afford to do so, should pay in full for their own carers and their own nursing homes.
  15. Take a big knife to cutting out whole departments and bodies which do nothing except
  16. Give the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council or the Central Bank the authority to set the overall budget policy - a budget deficit or budget surplus as they deem appropriate. The government would set its own tax and spending decisions within those limits.
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The above party policy has the DNA of FF/FG/LAB not a word about fairness ,
Can you imagine what the coronavirus would do if it got a hold in Ireland at present ,We would finish up having to borrow to pay illness benefit within a very short time, income tax/prsi/usc would drop straight away social security payments would rise ,
there is scope at present to future fund a downturn or Coronavirus type emergancy,

Nowhere in the above list is a proper thought out plan at address and fund how Working people are going to pay Mortgages rents if for any unforeseen reason large amounts are unemployed at the same time, Banks will go belly up ,business will go belly up, Government borrowing will go through the roof, pushing up mortgages Interest on anyone lucky enough to be in a position not to default on mortgage/rent,

Sounds like the present FF/FG/LAB parties do we really want another party who set out to avoid and put off addressing the above problem,
 
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Sunny said:
At the very least we should be looking to legislate a debt brake like in Germany. Politicians have proven they are likes kids in a sweet shop so lets remove the temptation away from them....
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losttheplot said:
bring the IMF back to sort it out.
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You are right in saying that we need to take the decisions on fiscal policy out of the hands of politicians. They always behave pro-cyclically and make the problem worse.

The problem with a debt brake is that we need a counter cyclical policy. It is often right to run a deficit and it is often right to run a surplus.

So give the Central Bank or the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council control of Fiscal Policy. It would be a bit like the Troika. This is how much the deficit or surplus will be - now you decide yourselves how much to raise in taxes and where you are going to spend the money.
 
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Sunny said:
The one thing I hate is all this talk about right and left wing politics. It doesn't exist in Ireland. We have some of the highest social transfers in the developed world and from listening to people, it sounds like we have been run by right wing fascist nuts since the foundation of the State.
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Absolutely. Recent so-called right wing governments, taxed pension funds, introduced a property tax for owners of property but not social housing, and introduced rent controls. And more importantly, they have borrowed €170 billion over the last 12 years or so to fund very high levels of public services and very high levels of social welfare.

I would like to see a political party promoting responsible long-term policies rather than populist short-term policies. I would support a responsible left wing party which aimed to cut borrowing before I would support a populist "right-wing" government.

I agree that it would be a very difficult sell. Telling people who are used to high levels of social welfare and services that we will not be able to afford them in the long-term. Competing with all the other right wing and left wing parties who borrow money to meet their short-term promises.

Brendan
 
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Attilla's Fusiliers I think would be appropriate name for the party. It's all logical but fairly Victorian in outlook, the only bit you left out was the sterilisation (I'd make it incentivised, not compulsory). I'm more realistic in that we'll always pay high taxes to live in this "great little country", there will always be a class of people who will live off the State. Its about managing that so it works.
 
Define people who are "not working". I've a family member who has not done a day's paid work in 3 years as she is a carer for her mother. Thankfully housing is not an issue for them but under your rules, if they had a need for social housing would they get it?
Also where do the likes of pensioners fit into your housing plan?

I'd agree with about 50% of this, another 25% of it would be ok with tweaks but some of it??? Take charging for healthcare for example, there are people who through no fault of their own would run up 5 and 6 figure sums in costs annually, who would pay for that. Governments have a social responsibilty as well as a fiscal one

Are you sure you are not Ross O'Carroll Kellys father ??
 
Brendan Burgess said:
So give the Central Bank or the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council control of Fiscal Policy. It would be a bit like the Troika. This is how much the deficit or surplus will be - now you decide yourselves how much to raise in taxes and where you are going to spend the money.
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Interesting article below about how they go about this in the Netherlands. It could be something useful to look at here..

www.irishtimes.com

The price of going Dutch on election manifestos

Independent costings frame the political debate but elections cover a broader range of topics, from foreign policy to justice
www.irishtimes.com www.irishtimes.com
 
Firefly said:
Interesting article below about how they go about this in the Netherlands.
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Hi Firefly

That is interesting ok but it only relates to campaign promises.

What I am suggesting is that we give the power to set the Budget limits to an independent body. I would worry less about promises than actual spending in practice.

Brendan
 
Peanuts20 said:
Define people who are "not working". I've a family member who has not done a day's paid work in 3 years as she is a carer for her mother. Thankfully housing is not an issue for them but under your rules, if they had a need for social housing would they get it?
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The principle is clear. People who are working outside the home should be prioritised for social housing close to where they work. It is just not a factor in the allocation at the moment.

The result is that people who are working end up with long commutes while people who depend on social welfare insist on housing in their community.

It is unfair for people who are working having to do long commutes on top of that while people who are not working get priority for housing in high demand areas.

The mother and daughter you mention would not be allocated social housing in a high demand area because they do not need it. If someone requires regular hospital attendance, then that would be a factor which would be taken into consideration.

Brendan
 
Political parties are all about ideologies and how these are conveyed to the public. Most parties either struggle to get the message across or don't really want to get the full message across for fear of how it will be construed.
In your case Brendan the sentiment of what you are proposing is logical for a large % of it but some of it would be absolutely toxic as a message to the public. It's not all about money.
As some have alluded to, the idea of shipping those on the dole out to places where housing is cheaper has some very dark connotations. I think your political advisors would be having a quiet word with you before publishing anything!
If Leo was accused of lacking empathy then I fear Brendan you would be portrayed as some sort of monster in certain media outlets!
 
Hi Ceist

I fully appreciate that a good long-term policy which benefits society as a whole would get loud objections from the vested interests.

But if a policy is correct, we should propose it and argue for it even if it's unpopular.

There is a huge housing problem and everyone is afraid to talking about some of the reasons because they will get abuse, like I get every time I propose it. But that wouldn't stop me. It's wrong to have people getting cheap and free housing in high demand areas while the people who are paying for it have to commute for 3 hours a day. A major part of the very high rents is that the state is paying for people who are not working to live in high demand areas.

It would be much better if the state refused to pay for these and demand and rents would fall in the high demand areas.

Brendan
 
I think what I'm hearing Brendan is that you would make a good political advisor but a bad politician! :p
 
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