Shades of Uncle Tom's Cabin in my opinion.
Did women in Ireland need a guarantor to borrow money?
- Thread starter Brendan Burgess
- Start date
Dr Strangelove
Registered User
- Messages
- 1,486
My own grandmother had to resign from the civil service when she married in the 1950s. She was very pleased to cash in her pension early as it allowed her and my grandfather buy a house. She told me this several times.
Maybe she suffered from false consciousness at the time and for the following 70 years. Who knows?
We accept the norms of the time.
However:
a) that doesn't make discrimination right
b) it never fully compensated women for the loss of income, financial standing and pension.
And if this was such a great benefit why wasn't also made available to men?
Let's not pretend it was all a great idea.
Annieindublin
Registered User
- Messages
- 381
It was normalised so no one thought anything about it. Doesn’t make it right, but until you stop and think about it and question it it never changes.
Didn’t mums get the children’s allowance… so why would they need to work? And that freed up a job for a family man.
Advancements in the civil service for women were rare, so no role models to encourage young junior staff to seek promotions. There was an assumption that they’d marry and leave so why promote them? You’d just have to replace them anyway… And if you saw yourself leaving soon why work your a$$ off to get promoted? And if you are in a junior role with poor pay childcare would take all your wages so you’d leave… vicious circle.
Distorted thinking by todays standards. Luckily things change.
Didn’t mums get the children’s allowance… so why would they need to work? And that freed up a job for a family man.
Advancements in the civil service for women were rare, so no role models to encourage young junior staff to seek promotions. There was an assumption that they’d marry and leave so why promote them? You’d just have to replace them anyway… And if you saw yourself leaving soon why work your a$$ off to get promoted? And if you are in a junior role with poor pay childcare would take all your wages so you’d leave… vicious circle.
Distorted thinking by todays standards. Luckily things change.
Brendan Burgess
Founder
- Messages
- 53,780
Apparently, the children's allowance was paid to the father!
Annieindublin
Registered User
- Messages
- 381
CA was collected in cash at the post office
10amwalker
Registered User
- Messages
- 149
I don't think that the children's allowance was paid to the father, it was very importantly paid to the woman. I remember my Mum going into the GPO to collect the allowance and then going across the road to Clery's to buy wool to knit jumpers for the winter. It was the only money my Mum received that she could decide what to spend it on.
Annieindublin
Registered User
- Messages
- 381
The default was to the mother. And I remember mum would let it accumulate coming up to Christmas and also over the summer ready for the school return costs.
Child benefit was paid to the father from the 50s-70s. Topically, Nell McCafferty and the Irish women’s liberation movement pushed for the change which happened in 1974.
There was a lot of change in 73-75 between the EEC, the IWLM and the Lab/FG Cosgrave government with Corish in health/welfare. The dail debates for those years are informative.
There was a lot of change in 73-75 between the EEC, the IWLM and the Lab/FG Cosgrave government with Corish in health/welfare. The dail debates for those years are informative.
Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 14 Jun 1973
Committee on Finance. - Social Welfare Bill, 1973. Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 14 Jun 1973
www.oireachtas.ie
Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 3 Apr 1974
Financial Statement. - Budget, 1974. Review of 1973. Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 3 Apr 1974
www.oireachtas.ie
Annieindublin
Registered User
- Messages
- 381
I did not realise that. Debates about the position of women in the home etc always referred to the fact that the state paid CB to mothers and I had assumed that it was always the case. Not as ´recent’ as 1974. I remember the inclusion of the first child, made a difference to lots of families.
I do recall the Women’s Liberation Movement, I was a young child and ´strident angry women’ was the dismissive term my father used. I suspect my mother admired them but would have stayed quiet,
I do recall the Women’s Liberation Movement, I was a young child and ´strident angry women’ was the dismissive term my father used. I suspect my mother admired them but would have stayed quiet,
Dr Strangelove
Registered User
- Messages
- 1,486
Weatherwax
Registered User
- Messages
- 3
The question is Did women in Ireland need a guarantor to borrow money?
In previous decades it was thought right and normal that men lead, especially in areas of decision-making and finance. It was a way of thinking that was legislated for and was part of common practice. The fact that there are posters on here saying for example that their grandmothers had a bank account, could mean that an exception was made particularly for someone from a better-off or "respectable" background or it could also mean that getting a signature from a husband, brother, father, son, uncle was such a normal thing to be asked to do, that made it so unremarkable as to be forgotten. We do know and there are posters on here, who have said that they know of women who were refused credit without a man's signature as guarantor, despite their at times better financial circumstances. So we know it was a common enough practice in banks and other lending institutions to require a Male guarantor in business transactions. The answer to the question did women in Ireland need a guarantor to borrow money, is yes, women were frequently asked to get a male guarantor to obtain credit in the Ireland of the 60s 70s and early 80s at least. The fact that some women managed to do buisness or have a bank account does not disprove the reality of other women who say this was impossible for them. The fact remains that money, the earning of it, the banking of it, the property ownership, the lending of it, was largely in male hands for decades and that position was protected.
Despite so many of these social norms being just a common practice that could vary depending on circumstance legislative changes did come in to create more equality and fairness. It is sometimes only when we read how the law changed that we realise what the common practice was.
Here is a list of legal changes in Ireland and their dates.
In previous decades it was thought right and normal that men lead, especially in areas of decision-making and finance. It was a way of thinking that was legislated for and was part of common practice. The fact that there are posters on here saying for example that their grandmothers had a bank account, could mean that an exception was made particularly for someone from a better-off or "respectable" background or it could also mean that getting a signature from a husband, brother, father, son, uncle was such a normal thing to be asked to do, that made it so unremarkable as to be forgotten. We do know and there are posters on here, who have said that they know of women who were refused credit without a man's signature as guarantor, despite their at times better financial circumstances. So we know it was a common enough practice in banks and other lending institutions to require a Male guarantor in business transactions. The answer to the question did women in Ireland need a guarantor to borrow money, is yes, women were frequently asked to get a male guarantor to obtain credit in the Ireland of the 60s 70s and early 80s at least. The fact that some women managed to do buisness or have a bank account does not disprove the reality of other women who say this was impossible for them. The fact remains that money, the earning of it, the banking of it, the property ownership, the lending of it, was largely in male hands for decades and that position was protected.
Despite so many of these social norms being just a common practice that could vary depending on circumstance legislative changes did come in to create more equality and fairness. It is sometimes only when we read how the law changed that we realise what the common practice was.
Here is a list of legal changes in Ireland and their dates.
- Irish Independence(1922)- EU Membership (1973)
-
- 1923: Women civil servants lose their right to return to their job if widowed.
- 1925: Higher pay rates paid to married men in civil and public service.
- 1926: Women graduates banned from civil service entry exams for senior jobs.
- 1934: Marriage Bar on newly qualified women teachers in national schools.
- 1946: Marriage Bar ends in British civil service. ➢ Remains in civil service and local government in Northern Ireland.
- 1958: Marriage Bar ends for women primary school teachers.
- 1958: First women gardai employed. Marriage Bar in contract.
- 1973: Legislation ends (formal) Marriage Bar in civil service, in line with EU rules ➢ Former civils servants can get old job back if proves financial hardship.
- 1973 Deserted wives payment
- 1973 Unmarried mother allowance began.
- 1974: Local authorities, health boards and gardaí end Marriage Bar.
- 1974 Childrens Allowance Act made childrens allowance payable to the mother.
- 1976 The Family Home Protection Act, Prevents the sale mortgage of a property which is the family home without the other spouses knowledge of consent.
- 1977 Employment Equality Act implemented as EEC directive introduced several changes but did not provide for equal pay.
In manufacturing women made up one third of the workforce but were paid 43pc
less than men -
- • 1977: Informal Marriage Bar outlawed by European anti-discrimination law
- 1998 - 2015 Employment Equality Act. Outlaws discrimination by employers on access to employment conditions training and promotion
- 2015 The Equal Status Act went further and outlawed discrimination in all services that are generally available to the public whether provided by the State or Private sector
Last edited: