Shades of Uncle Tom's Cabin in my opinion.
Did women in Ireland need a guarantor to borrow money?
- Thread starter Brendan Burgess
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Dr Strangelove
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My own grandmother had to resign from the civil service when she married in the 1950s. She was very pleased to cash in her pension early as it allowed her and my grandfather buy a house. She told me this several times.
Maybe she suffered from false consciousness at the time and for the following 70 years. Who knows?
We accept the norms of the time.
However:
a) that doesn't make discrimination right
b) it never fully compensated women for the loss of income, financial standing and pension.
And if this was such a great benefit why wasn't also made available to men?
Let's not pretend it was all a great idea.
Annieindublin
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It was normalised so no one thought anything about it. Doesn’t make it right, but until you stop and think about it and question it it never changes.
Didn’t mums get the children’s allowance… so why would they need to work? And that freed up a job for a family man.
Advancements in the civil service for women were rare, so no role models to encourage young junior staff to seek promotions. There was an assumption that they’d marry and leave so why promote them? You’d just have to replace them anyway… And if you saw yourself leaving soon why work your a$$ off to get promoted? And if you are in a junior role with poor pay childcare would take all your wages so you’d leave… vicious circle.
Distorted thinking by todays standards. Luckily things change.
Didn’t mums get the children’s allowance… so why would they need to work? And that freed up a job for a family man.
Advancements in the civil service for women were rare, so no role models to encourage young junior staff to seek promotions. There was an assumption that they’d marry and leave so why promote them? You’d just have to replace them anyway… And if you saw yourself leaving soon why work your a$$ off to get promoted? And if you are in a junior role with poor pay childcare would take all your wages so you’d leave… vicious circle.
Distorted thinking by todays standards. Luckily things change.
Brendan Burgess
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Apparently, the children's allowance was paid to the father!
Annieindublin
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CA was collected in cash at the post office
10amwalker
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I don't think that the children's allowance was paid to the father, it was very importantly paid to the woman. I remember my Mum going into the GPO to collect the allowance and then going across the road to Clery's to buy wool to knit jumpers for the winter. It was the only money my Mum received that she could decide what to spend it on.
Annieindublin
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The default was to the mother. And I remember mum would let it accumulate coming up to Christmas and also over the summer ready for the school return costs.
Child benefit was paid to the father from the 50s-70s. Topically, Nell McCafferty and the Irish women’s liberation movement pushed for the change which happened in 1974.
There was a lot of change in 73-75 between the EEC, the IWLM and the Lab/FG Cosgrave government with Corish in health/welfare. The dail debates for those years are informative.
There was a lot of change in 73-75 between the EEC, the IWLM and the Lab/FG Cosgrave government with Corish in health/welfare. The dail debates for those years are informative.
Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 14 Jun 1973
Committee on Finance. - Social Welfare Bill, 1973. Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 14 Jun 1973
www.oireachtas.ie
Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 3 Apr 1974
Financial Statement. - Budget, 1974. Review of 1973. Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 3 Apr 1974
www.oireachtas.ie
Annieindublin
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I did not realise that. Debates about the position of women in the home etc always referred to the fact that the state paid CB to mothers and I had assumed that it was always the case. Not as ´recent’ as 1974. I remember the inclusion of the first child, made a difference to lots of families.
I do recall the Women’s Liberation Movement, I was a young child and ´strident angry women’ was the dismissive term my father used. I suspect my mother admired them but would have stayed quiet,
I do recall the Women’s Liberation Movement, I was a young child and ´strident angry women’ was the dismissive term my father used. I suspect my mother admired them but would have stayed quiet,
Dr Strangelove
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Weatherwax
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The question is Did women in Ireland need a guarantor to borrow money?
The social legal and institutionalised financial control of women in Irish society is difficult to find information on. It is often not written about as a piece of our history in the way the control of our sexuality and our bodies has been. In previous decades it was thought right and normal that men lead, especially in areas of decision-making and finance. It was a way of thinking that was legislated for and was part of common practice. The fact that there are posters on here saying for example that their grandmothers had a bank account, could mean that an exception was made, particularly for someone from a better-off or "respectable" background or it could also mean that getting a signature from a husband, brother, father, son, uncle etc was such a normal thing to be asked to do, it also made it so unremarkable as to be forgotten.
I was refused a rental contract for a TV in 1980 in Dublin, even though I had a permanent full-time job as a teacher. I was told they didn't rent to women unless the contract was also signed by a man, any man. At the time I lived in a rented flat, didn't own a car or very much else really. TV shops were in most towns and cities and many people rented their televisions rather than purchase them as it was considered a big investment and besides moving from flat to flat as we often did with no rental security it would be difficult to transport they were bulky and heavy. I didnt get a TV of my own until much later.
The answer to the question "Did women in Ireland need a guarantor to borrow money" is yes, women were frequently asked to get a male guarantor to obtain credit in the Ireland of the 60s 70s and early 80s at least. The fact that some women managed to get credit or have a bank account, whether it was as an exception to general practice, or because they were quietly backed by fathers husbands, uncles etc, does not disprove the reality of other women for whom it was impossible.
I worked with a woman in the early 80s whose father was a Bank Manager and she had also spent some years working in the Bank before changing profession. She told me that when she worked there, male employees considered the availability of low interest rates and easy loans for houses of employees, to be a perk of the job. Women employees on the other hand were not offered and were refused home loans without a male guarantor. She said she knew the first female Bank employee that did get a loan in her name only but said she still had to pay a higher interest rate than her male colleagues.
The fact remains that money, the earning of it, the banking of it, the property ownership, the lending of it, was largely in male hands for decades and that position was protected.
Despite so many of these social norms being just a common practice, that could vary depending on circumstance, legislative changes did come in to create more equality and fairness. It is sometimes only when we read how the law changed that we realise what the common practice was.
Many of the legislative changes that were introduced in favour of women's financial equality did not happen as a result of the policies of Irish politicians but in response to directives from the EU..
Here is a list ofsome of the legal changes in Ireland that helped facilitate better financial equality for women
The social legal and institutionalised financial control of women in Irish society is difficult to find information on. It is often not written about as a piece of our history in the way the control of our sexuality and our bodies has been. In previous decades it was thought right and normal that men lead, especially in areas of decision-making and finance. It was a way of thinking that was legislated for and was part of common practice. The fact that there are posters on here saying for example that their grandmothers had a bank account, could mean that an exception was made, particularly for someone from a better-off or "respectable" background or it could also mean that getting a signature from a husband, brother, father, son, uncle etc was such a normal thing to be asked to do, it also made it so unremarkable as to be forgotten.
I was refused a rental contract for a TV in 1980 in Dublin, even though I had a permanent full-time job as a teacher. I was told they didn't rent to women unless the contract was also signed by a man, any man. At the time I lived in a rented flat, didn't own a car or very much else really. TV shops were in most towns and cities and many people rented their televisions rather than purchase them as it was considered a big investment and besides moving from flat to flat as we often did with no rental security it would be difficult to transport they were bulky and heavy. I didnt get a TV of my own until much later.
The answer to the question "Did women in Ireland need a guarantor to borrow money" is yes, women were frequently asked to get a male guarantor to obtain credit in the Ireland of the 60s 70s and early 80s at least. The fact that some women managed to get credit or have a bank account, whether it was as an exception to general practice, or because they were quietly backed by fathers husbands, uncles etc, does not disprove the reality of other women for whom it was impossible.
I worked with a woman in the early 80s whose father was a Bank Manager and she had also spent some years working in the Bank before changing profession. She told me that when she worked there, male employees considered the availability of low interest rates and easy loans for houses of employees, to be a perk of the job. Women employees on the other hand were not offered and were refused home loans without a male guarantor. She said she knew the first female Bank employee that did get a loan in her name only but said she still had to pay a higher interest rate than her male colleagues.
The fact remains that money, the earning of it, the banking of it, the property ownership, the lending of it, was largely in male hands for decades and that position was protected.
Despite so many of these social norms being just a common practice, that could vary depending on circumstance, legislative changes did come in to create more equality and fairness. It is sometimes only when we read how the law changed that we realise what the common practice was.
Many of the legislative changes that were introduced in favour of women's financial equality did not happen as a result of the policies of Irish politicians but in response to directives from the EU..
Here is a list ofsome of the legal changes in Ireland that helped facilitate better financial equality for women
- Irish Independence(1922)- EU Membership (1973)
-
- 1923: Women civil servants lose their right to return to their job if widowed.
- 1925: Higher pay rates paid to married men in civil and public service.
- 1926: Women graduates banned from civil service entry exams for senior jobs.
- 1934: Marriage Bar on newly qualified women teachers in national schools.
- 1946: Marriage Bar ends in British civil service. ➢ Remains in civil service and local government in Northern Ireland.
- 1958: Marriage Bar ends for women primary school teachers.
- 1958: First women gardai employed. Marriage Bar in contract.
- 1965: Succession Act. This is called the Legal Right Share where on the death of a spouse the surviving partner is entitled to one half of the estate if there are no children, or one third of the estate if there are children. So a spouse could not be disinherited.
- 1967: Free second level education introduced. This often meant that girls got an education too where boys education took priority.
- 1973: Legislation ends (formal) Marriage Bar in civil service, in line with EU rules ➢ Former civils servants can get old job back if proves financial hardship.
- 1973 Deserted wives payment
- 1973 Unmarried mother allowance began.
- 1974: Local authorities, health boards and gardaí end Marriage Bar.
- 1974 Childrens Allowance Act made childrens allowance payable to the mother. Until then the person designated to collect the monthly payment was the father.
- 1976 The Family Home Protection Act, Prevents the sale mortgage of a property which is the family home without the other spouses knowledge of consent.
- 1977 Employment Equality Act implemented as EEC directive introduced several changes but did not provide for equal pay.
In manufacturing women made up one third of the workforce but were paid 43pc
less than men -
- • 1977: Informal Marriage Bar outlawed by European anti-discrimination law
- 1998 - 2015 Employment Equality Act. Outlaws discrimination by employers on access to employment conditions training and promotion
- 2015 The Equal Status Act went further and outlawed discrimination in all services that are generally available to the public whether provided by the State or Private sector
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