Current public sentiment towards the housing market?

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just back on the original topic for a moment.

would anyone agree that the fact ALOT more of the "common joes" are talking about a property bubble coupled with the fact you have more and more "experts" trying to talk down a bubble mean that we are now at a critical phase of this cycle?

the dogs on the street know they're looking at a massive bubble waiting to pop and want out / refuse to get in but the "experts" are trying to train them to "heel" and that things will be fine.

only problem is a pack of dogs can be VERY disobidient :)

it really seems though like the market is now beginnning to majorly turn , with inventory building up and the market still slow (when this was the much trumpeted month for the return to form of the property market after the "usual" slow summer)

now with the possibility of stamp duty abolotion / reductions ireland could be looking at the largest dead cat bounce in property market history and it might just be around the corner
 
Hi all,

Below I am trying to do a costing of buy-to-let of a prop in Christchurch.

Buy 290k Bertram Court 1 bed Christchurch...assume it goes for 317k
[broken link removed]=

One for rent : Bertram Court 1 bed Christchurch - asking 1,050 - say they only get 950 per month
http://www.daft.ie/searchrental.daft?search=1&s[cc_id]=ct1&s[a_id]=3647&s[mnp]=&s[mxp]=&s[bd_no]=&s[search_type]=rental&s[refreshmap]=1&limit=10&search_type=rental&id=422013



I appreciate that it will be quite easy to pick holes in it (this is not exactly a thesis), but it's a shot nevertheless.

Assumptions

The Opp Cost = initial outlay costs (SD, Legal, Fit out) plus the annual subsidising costs, as the ave "investor" will not be able to walk into the bank and borrow 317k for anything other than property,
I have added these subsidising costs to the initial costs at the beginning of the year before adding interest which will boost the overall opp cost fig per year.

Ignoring interest rate movements...we can't say for certain what the average interest rate will be over the next 30 years. I accept they are low at the moment by historical standards.

Ignoring inflation - higher inflation will do nothing to affect the loan repayments, but could have effects on rental incomes going up along with expenses such as Maint costs, repairs etc. We could argue all day about future rental prices going uo/down...incidentally I owned a prop near Christchurch and feel rent here has gone up in the last 2 years byt approx 100 pm for above prop.

Reducing balance - I am ignoring the falling interest element as maturity approaches, meaning that more and more of the repayments will be repaying the actual pur price and not interest.

Taxation - as there will be subsidising occuring for many years I am ignoring the tax due when income is greater than expenses (all profits on other investments are taxed also diff rates though). I am also ignoring subtracting Dep Retention Tax on deposits (which will boost the opp cost)


Prop Cost 317,000
Initial Transaction Costs

Stamp Duty 5% (assume non-ftb) 15,850
Legal 3,000
Furnishings 6,000

Total initial Outlay 24,850


Monthly Expenses
Mortgage 1,427
Less Mtg Int Relief -100
1,327

Insurance 80
Maintenance Co. 117
Upkeep (repairs etc) 83

Monthly Cost 1,607
Less Income
10 months rent PY @950pm 792
Shortfall Per month 815

Shortfall Per Year 9,778

Year Principal + Yearly Shortfall 3.5% Int Total
0 24,850.00 9,778.00 34,628.00 1.035 35,839.98
1 35,839.98 9,778.00 45,617.98 1.035 37,094.38
2 37,094.38 9,778.00 46,872.38 1.035 38,392.68
3 38,392.68 9,778.00 48,170.68 1.035 39,736.43
4 39,736.43 9,778.00 49,514.43 1.035 41,127.20
5 41,127.20 9,778.00 50,905.20 1.035 42,566.65
6 42,566.65 9,778.00 52,344.65 1.035 44,056.49
7 44,056.49 9,778.00 53,834.49 1.035 45,598.46
8 45,598.46 9,778.00 55,376.46 1.035 47,194.41
9 47,194.41 9,778.00 56,972.41 1.035 48,846.21
10 48,846.21 9,778.00 58,624.21 1.035 50,555.83
11 50,555.83 9,778.00 60,333.83 1.035 52,325.29
12 52,325.29 9,778.00 62,103.29 1.035 54,156.67
13 54,156.67 9,778.00 63,934.67 1.035 56,052.15
14 56,052.15 9,778.00 65,830.15 1.035 58,013.98
15 58,013.98 9,778.00 67,791.98 1.035 60,044.47
16 60,044.47 9,778.00 69,822.47 1.035 62,146.02
17 62,146.02 9,778.00 71,924.02 1.035 64,321.14
18 64,321.14 9,778.00 74,099.14 1.035 66,572.38
19 66,572.38 9,778.00 76,350.38 1.035 68,902.41
20 68,902.41 9,778.00 78,680.41 1.035 71,313.99
21 71,313.99 9,778.00 81,091.99 1.035 73,809.98
22 73,809.98 9,778.00 83,587.98 1.035 76,393.33
23 76,393.33 9,778.00 86,171.33 1.035 79,067.10
24 79,067.10 9,778.00 88,845.10 1.035 81,834.45
25 81,834.45 9,778.00 91,612.45 1.035 84,698.65
26 84,698.65 9,778.00 94,476.65 1.035 87,663.11
27 87,663.11 9,778.00 97,441.11 1.035 90,731.31
28 90,731.31 9,778.00 100,509.31 1.035 93,906.91
29 93,906.91 9,778.00 103,684.91 1.035 97,193.65
30 97,193.65 9,778.00 106,971.65 1.035 100,595.43

So, by putting the initial outlay costs in the bank and adding the annual subsidy costs to it and getting 3.5% on it, after 30 years you'd have only 100k.
 
...would anyone agree that the fact ALOT more of the "common joes" are talking about a property bubble coupled with the fact you have more and more "experts" trying to talk down a bubble mean that we are now at a critical phase of this cycle?

it really seems though like the market is now beginnning to majorly turn , with inventory building up and the market still slow (when this was the much trumpeted month for the return to form of the property market after the "usual" slow summer)...

The thing about a sentiment-driven bubble which continues to grow despite many logical reasons why it should reverse, is that sentiment can also drive the needle which eventually catches it out. When the market is so far from equilibrium, people talking about "people talking about property reversals" might be all it needs to start the stampede. Threads like this, for example, could well become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Hurrah!
 
We have been here before, a turning point in the market that is. 2001 before 9/11 inventory was rising and prices falling. After 9/11 and Greenspan's emergency rate cuts the market entered a manic stage that has lasted five years. So 400,000 new homes and billions in debt later its back to the future (or 2001) and that forestalled day of reckoning between supply and demand.
 
So, by putting the initial outlay costs in the bank and adding the annual subsidy costs to it and getting 3.5% on it, after 30 years you'd have only 100k.

I'm trying to figure out what you're doing and can't decide if I've completely misunderstood you or you've made a big mistake. Your subsidy is about 10k a year, so how do you end up with only 100k after 30 years (ignoring all other calculations)?

Christchurch rents have been static in the past 6 years. I'd say that one beds have come down about 50-100 in past year, two beds are about the same. 950 is more than I'd expect for a Bertram one bed, I'd budget 850 as more realistic.
 
Check out the West Dublin Property Rash on daft.ie Maps
propertyrash1.gif

Looks rather alarming to me. But then again, I have nothing to compare it to. Still seems like a lot of houses up for sale.
 

Apologies..forgot to add the annual subbing costs..only realised after sent


Year​
Principal​
Yearly Shortfall​
Total​
3.5% Dep Interest​
Total​
0​
24,850.00​
9,778.00​
34,628.00​
1.035​
35,839.98​
1​
35,839.98​
9,778.00​
45,617.98​
1.035​
47,214.61​
2​
47,214.61​
9,778.00​
56,992.61​
1.035​
58,987.35​
3​
58,987.35​
9,778.00​
68,765.35​
1.035​
71,172.14​
4​
71,172.14​
9,778.00​
80,950.14​
1.035​
83,783.39​
5​
83,783.39​
9,778.00​
93,561.39​
1.035​
96,836.04​
6​
96,836.04​
9,778.00​
106,614.04​
1.035​
110,345.53​
7​
110,345.53​
9,778.00​
120,123.53​
1.035​
124,327.86​
8​
124,327.86​
9,778.00​
134,105.86​
1.035​
138,799.56​
9​
138,799.56​
9,778.00​
148,577.56​
1.035​
153,777.78​
10​
153,777.78​
9,778.00​
163,555.78​
1.035​
169,280.23​
11​
169,280.23​
9,778.00​
179,058.23​
1.035​
185,325.27​
12​
185,325.27​
9,778.00​
195,103.27​
1.035​
201,931.88​
13​
201,931.88​
9,778.00​
211,709.88​
1.035​
219,119.73​
14​
219,119.73​
9,778.00​
228,897.73​
1.035​
236,909.15​
15​
236,909.15​
9,778.00​
246,687.15​
1.035​
255,321.20​
16​
255,321.20​
9,778.00​
265,099.20​
1.035​
274,377.67​
17​
274,377.67​
9,778.00​
284,155.67​
1.035​
294,101.12​
18​
294,101.12​
9,778.00​
303,879.12​
1.035​
314,514.89​
19​
314,514.89​
9,778.00​
324,292.89​
1.035​
335,643.14​
20​
335,643.14​
9,778.00​
345,421.14​
1.035​
357,510.88​
21​
357,510.88​
9,778.00​
367,288.88​
1.035​
380,143.99​
22​
380,143.99​
9,778.00​
389,921.99​
1.035​
403,569.26​
23​
403,569.26​
9,778.00​
413,347.26​
1.035​
427,814.41​
24​
427,814.41​
9,778.00​
437,592.41​
1.035​
452,908.15​
25​
452,908.15​
9,778.00​
462,686.15​
1.035​
478,880.16​
26​
478,880.16​
9,778.00​
488,658.16​
1.035​
505,761.20​
27​
505,761.20​
9,778.00​
515,539.20​
1.035​
533,583.07​
28​
533,583.07​
9,778.00​
543,361.07​
1.035​
562,378.71​
29​
562,378.71​
9,778.00​
572,156.71​
1.035​
592,182.19​
30​
592,182.19​
9,778.00​
601,960.19​
1.035​
623,028.80​
So the actual return is 600k which is altogether different!!!!
 
Year​
Principal​
Yearly Shortfall​
Total​
3.5% Dep Interest​
Total​
0​
24,850.00​
9,778.00​
34,628.00​
1.035​
35,839.98​
1​
35,839.98​
9,778.00​
45,617.98​
1.035​
47,214.61​
2​
47,214.61​
9,778.00​
56,992.61​
1.035​
58,987.35​
3​
58,987.35​
9,778.00​
68,765.35​
1.035​
71,172.14​
4​
71,172.14​
9,778.00​
80,950.14​
1.035​
83,783.39​
5​
83,783.39​
9,778.00​
93,561.39​
1.035​
96,836.04​
6​
96,836.04​
9,778.00​
106,614.04​
1.035​
110,345.53​
7​
110,345.53​
9,778.00​
120,123.53​
1.035​
124,327.86​
8​
124,327.86​
9,778.00​
134,105.86​
1.035​
138,799.56​
9​
138,799.56​
9,778.00​
148,577.56​
1.035​
153,777.78​
10​
153,777.78​
9,778.00​
163,555.78​
1.035​
169,280.23​
11​
169,280.23​
9,778.00​
179,058.23​
1.035​
185,325.27​
12​
185,325.27​
9,778.00​
195,103.27​
1.035​
201,931.88​
13​
201,931.88​
9,778.00​
211,709.88​
1.035​
219,119.73​
14​
219,119.73​
9,778.00​
228,897.73​
1.035​
236,909.15​
15​
236,909.15​
9,778.00​
246,687.15​
1.035​
255,321.20​
16​
255,321.20​
9,778.00​
265,099.20​
1.035​
274,377.67​
17​
274,377.67​
9,778.00​
284,155.67​
1.035​
294,101.12​
18​
294,101.12​
9,778.00​
303,879.12​
1.035​
314,514.89​
19​
314,514.89​
9,778.00​
324,292.89​
1.035​
335,643.14​
20​
335,643.14​
9,778.00​
345,421.14​
1.035​
357,510.88​
21​
357,510.88​
9,778.00​
367,288.88​
1.035​
380,143.99​
22​
380,143.99​
9,778.00​
389,921.99​
1.035​
403,569.26​
23​
403,569.26​
9,778.00​
413,347.26​
1.035​
427,814.41​
24​
427,814.41​
9,778.00​
437,592.41​
1.035​
452,908.15​
25​
452,908.15​
9,778.00​
462,686.15​
1.035​
478,880.16​
26​
478,880.16​
9,778.00​
488,658.16​
1.035​
505,761.20​
27​
505,761.20​
9,778.00​
515,539.20​
1.035​
533,583.07​
28​
533,583.07​
9,778.00​
543,361.07​
1.035​
562,378.71​
29​
562,378.71​
9,778.00​
572,156.71​
1.035​
592,182.19​
30​
592,182.19​
9,778.00​
601,960.19​
1.035​
623,028.80​
 
Trying to post this bleeding thing properly!!

Year Principal Yearly Shortfall Total 3.5% Dep Interest Total
0 24,850.00 9,778.00 34,628.00 1.035 35,839.98
1 35,839.98 9,778.00 45,617.98 1.035 47,214.61
2 47,214.61 9,778.00 56,992.61 1.035 58,987.35
3 58,987.35 9,778.00 68,765.35 1.035 71,172.14
4 71,172.14 9,778.00 80,950.14 1.035 83,783.39
5 83,783.39 9,778.00 93,561.39 1.035 96,836.04
6 96,836.04 9,778.00 106,614.04 1.035 110,345.53
7 110,345.53 9,778.00 120,123.53 1.035 124,327.86
8 124,327.86 9,778.00 134,105.86 1.035 138,799.56
9 138,799.56 9,778.00 148,577.56 1.035 153,777.78
10 153,777.78 9,778.00 163,555.78 1.035 169,280.23
11 169,280.23 9,778.00 179,058.23 1.035 185,325.27
12 185,325.27 9,778.00 195,103.27 1.035 201,931.88
13 201,931.88 9,778.00 211,709.88 1.035 219,119.73
14 219,119.73 9,778.00 228,897.73 1.035 236,909.15
15 236,909.15 9,778.00 246,687.15 1.035 255,321.20
16 255,321.20 9,778.00 265,099.20 1.035 274,377.67
17 274,377.67 9,778.00 284,155.67 1.035 294,101.12
18 294,101.12 9,778.00 303,879.12 1.035 314,514.89
19 314,514.89 9,778.00 324,292.89 1.035 335,643.14
20 335,643.14 9,778.00 345,421.14 1.035 357,510.88
21 357,510.88 9,778.00 367,288.88 1.035 380,143.99
22 380,143.99 9,778.00 389,921.99 1.035 403,569.26
23 403,569.26 9,778.00 413,347.26 1.035 427,814.41
24 427,814.41 9,778.00 437,592.41 1.035 452,908.15
25 452,908.15 9,778.00 462,686.15 1.035 478,880.16
26 478,880.16 9,778.00 488,658.16 1.035 505,761.20
27 505,761.20 9,778.00 515,539.20 1.035 533,583.07
28 533,583.07 9,778.00 543,361.07 1.035 562,378.71
29 562,378.71 9,778.00 572,156.71 1.035 592,182.19
30 592,182.19 9,778.00 601,960.19 1.035 623,028.80
 
I'm trying to figure out what you're doing and can't decide if I've completely misunderstood you or you've made a big mistake. Your subsidy is about 10k a year, so how do you end up with only 100k after 30 years (ignoring all other calculations)?

It looks like Firefly copied down the wrong interest calculation, i.e. on the original outlay.
When you add in the 9,778 pa, total investment after 30yrs is 623,721.64

Just noticed already answered! sorry
 
Last edited:
Looks rather alarming to me. But then again, I have nothing to compare it to. Still seems like a lot of houses up for sale.

It would be interesting to see what percentage of property in these areas is currently up for sale 5%? 10%?Not sure how to find out the total houses in this view short of going through all the CSO records!
 
It would be interesting to see what percentage of property in these areas is currently up for sale 5%? 10%?Not sure how to find out the total houses in this view short of going through all the CSO records!
Definitely would not like to be selling a house in the big estates outside the M50... check out the number of properties for sale in Clonsilla 100; Lucan 113; Clondalkin 141; Tallaght 181...
With that amount of supply prices must be coming down, mustn't they?
 
Definitely would not like to be selling a house in the big estates outside the M50... check out the number of properties for sale in Clonsilla 100; Lucan 113; Clondalkin 141; Tallaght 181...
With that amount of supply prices must be coming down, mustn't they?

It depends if sellers are thinking "I'm not accepting anything less than X +10% because yer wan down the road got X three months ago"
 
Definitely would not like to be selling a house in the big estates outside the M50... check out the number of properties for sale in Clonsilla 100; Lucan 113; Clondalkin 141; Tallaght 181...
With that amount of supply prices must be coming down, mustn't they?

Total number of properties for sale on daft.ie is still only 17645 today - it's been bouncing under the 18k mark for a couple of weeks now. Personally, my opinion is that this figure is being doctored by the site admins.
 
Total number of properties for sale on daft.ie is still only 17645 today - it's been bouncing under the 18k mark for a couple of weeks now. Personally, my opinion is that this figure is being doctored by the site admins.

You're probably right but even if they're being overstated by 50% they're still huge numbers.
 
Definitely would not like to be selling a house in
the big estates outside the M50... check out the number of properties
for sale in Clonsilla 100; Lucan 113; Clondalkin 141; Tallaght 181...
With that amount of supply prices must be coming down, mustn't
they?
Are these Daft figures? I get slightly higher on MyHome:<br>

Beds Lucan Tallaght Clondalkin Blanch Clonsilla
2- 18 46 50 33 23
3 137 156* 101 34 60
4+ 56 27 22 5 31
211 229 173 72 114

* Calculated as Terraced + Not Terraced (everything selected bar Terraced)
 
Here's a copy from a spreadsheet I did a number of months ago.

Gross Yield 3.348837209
Net Yield 2.951860465

Have you just defined net yield as (income-expenses)/price?

In *none* of your calculations does the rent cover the mortgage. Did you factor that into the yield calc?
 
To get the same return over 30 years, the property woulod only have to increase 2.25% anually

Year Apt Value %incr Total
0 317000 1.0225 324132.5
1 324132.5 1.0225 331425.4813
2 331425.4813 1.0225 338882.5546
3 338882.5546 1.0225 346507.4121
4 346507.4121 1.0225 354303.8288
5 354303.8288 1.0225 362275.665
6 362275.665 1.0225 370426.8674
7 370426.8674 1.0225 378761.472
8 378761.472 1.0225 387283.6051
9 387283.6051 1.0225 395997.4862
10 395997.4862 1.0225 404907.4296
11 404907.4296 1.0225 414017.8468
12 414017.8468 1.0225 423333.2483
13 423333.2483 1.0225 432858.2464
14 432858.2464 1.0225 442597.557
15 442597.557 1.0225 452556.002
16 452556.002 1.0225 462738.5121
17 462738.5121 1.0225 473150.1286
18 473150.1286 1.0225 483796.0065
19 483796.0065 1.0225 494681.4166
20 494681.4166 1.0225 505811.7485
21 505811.7485 1.0225 517192.5128
22 517192.5128 1.0225 528829.3444
23 528829.3444 1.0225 540728.0046
24 540728.0046 1.0225 552894.3847
25 552894.3847 1.0225 565334.5084
26 565334.5084 1.0225 578054.5348
27 578054.5348 1.0225 591060.7619
28 591060.7619 1.0225 604359.629
29 604359.629 1.0225 617957.7206
30 617957.7206 1.0225 631861.7694


What do you think???
Firefly
 
Are these Daft figures? I get slightly higher on MyHome:

Beds Lucan Tallaght Clondalkin Blanch Clonsilla
2- 18 46 50 33 23
3 137 156* 101 34 60
4+ 56 27 22 5 31
-----------------------------------------
211 229 173 72 114

* Calculated as Terraced + Not Terraced (everything selected bar Terraced)
They're Daft - just taken from a quick perusal of the Map Search posted earlier..
 
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