Current cleric report spiked?

  • Thread starter Chocks away
  • Start date
RMCF said:
But the problem is the problem NOT baptising the child would cause. I can't imagine going to the in-laws or my own family and telling them the child's not getting baptised a Catholic. That would be the end of it.

.
Click to expand...

I don't mean to be rude but it's hard to belive in this day and age that you are an adult who can't stand up for your beliefs.

Really what is wrong with people.
_____________
You are all very naive if you think anything has or will change in the Church. You only have to see a disgraced Bishop today saying that there should be nor more enquires and another Bishop saying it was a pity Rome didn't open their files. Why doesn't he ask for the files.

This whole thing is a complete abomination.
 
RMCF said:
As I mentioned on a post in another thread, I have a new baby arriving shortly.

I would love to make a stand and not get it baptised into this evil organisation now, instead letting it decide for itself when its old enough which religion (if any) it wants to follow. I'd rather the child was christian in attitude and respect everyone rather than have to be a Catholic immediately.

But the problem is the problem NOT baptising the child would cause. I can't imagine going to the in-laws or my own family and telling them the child's not getting baptised a Catholic. That would be the end of it.

So perhaps thats why so many are still queuing up - cos its expected.
Click to expand...

So you you would enter your child into 'an evil organistaion' to have a quite life for yourself?
I don't believe it to be an evil organisation, rather that evil men and women have used it to further their own needs.
 
Betsy Og said:
...The problem with the Catholic Church in Ireland is that, since the foundation of the State, it was all about power & social control.

In the last 20 its been about scandal, disgrace, hypocrisy unveiled.

I absolutely believe in total separation of church & state, no role in education & health, no "catholicising" of our legislation - e.g. licencing laws on Good Friday. OK they did much good (& harm) years ago in health and education, but now the government has stepped in, is footing the bill, and should take full control.

Once that separation process is complete (only partially there, church still owns schools & hopsitals I gather), then the power & social control aspect will be fully gone, and religion can find its true home as a personal matter, celebrated in congregations, expressed in charity etc.

I dont think the wiping of religion from the developed world would be a good development (leaving aside the outdated sectarian aspect of Norn Iron, or the looper element of radical islam).
Click to expand...

I agree 100%.

Bronte said:
I don't mean to be rude but it's hard to belive in this day and age that you are an adult who can't stand up for your beliefs.

Really what is wrong with people.
Click to expand...

Whilst I accept the principle I think this is a bit harsh. I'm not a parent but if I was, I can well imagine that RMCF's dilemma would also be an issue for me - and for many. Also, as has been mentioned, for now at least, schooling may be problematic.
 
Caveat said:
I agree 100%.



Whilst I accept the principle I think this is a bit harsh. I'm not a parent but if I was, I can well imagine that RMCF's dilemma would also be an issue for me - and for many. Also, as has been mentioned, for now at least, schooling may be problematic.
Click to expand...

Yes it could be but only if the status quo survives.
 
Chocks away said:
Yes it could be but only if the status quo survives.
Click to expand...

Of course, which obviously prompts the issue of 'doing something about it' etc and I don't disagree with that.

But people who have 4 year old kids now, today, generally probably don't have the time/luxury of revolution.

I suppose it's up to you and me then...

D'accord, Allons!!

(can you say that? :eek:)
 
En Francais? Oui! :) I can also sing On With The Motley from Pagliacci :rolleyes: But seriously, I'm too old for revolution but still believe in giving corruption a bloody good hiding. Providing I don't lose my house, of course. :)
 
MrMan said:
I don't believe it to be an evil organisation, rather that evil men and women have used it to further their own needs.
Click to expand...

How is it not an evil organisation?

Its people in charge/at the top knew about all this happening, yet did nothing to stop it. They moved the offenders about so that they simply had more 'fresh meat' to prey on, more children to abuse. If you know about evil, harbour it and let it continue to breathe then you yourself are evil. If you never touched a child, yet knew of others doing it and did nothing about it, then in my eyes, and in the eyes of many, you are as evil as the abuser yourself.

I know that there are good people in the CC, but the organisation itself is rotten to the core and so unChristian in its actions. Unfortunately all the good people have been tainted with the sins of the rather large minority.

And don't forget that we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg here. If every single Catholic diocese in the world had an investigation done into it like we have seen here, I am sure the number of offending priests would run into the thousands, and the victim numbers into the tens of thousands, maybe more.
 
Betsy Og said:
I think it would nearly be best all round (subject to that legal concern), to get it into the public domain ASAP, let 2009 be an annus horribilus (as HRH might say).

Horrible deeds, but on the clerical side its a bit unfortunate that the guilty are largely escaping (dead, unidentified publicly) and innocent (the vast majority of decent honest priests) are left to carry the can for it. If civil or public servants feel unloved, can you imagine what it must be like for an honest priest at the moment.

That said the victims are top priority and church coffers should be prised open for them, & in the long run final analysis it may at least lead to a more mature church and state relationship, and more acceptable ambitions of the catholic church in Ireland (i.e. I think its fair to say that the 'social control' aspect of a homogenous catholic state is gone for good, & good riddance).
Click to expand...

I don't agree with your first bit above, Betsy. If I was a victim of one of the priests not named in the report, I'd want that abuser to rot in a prison cell for the rest of his life. If I thought that I wouldn't get justice, all because his name was put into the public domain and he got off, claiming the publicity would prevent him getting a fair trial, it would make my living nightmare even worse.

I agree with you about the honest priests, though. A priest friend of mine was spat at on a city street one day at the time of the Brendan Smyth scandal. They must be having a tough time at the moment.
 
Every organisation has bad apples, but in this case there was no-one to take the ultimate rap. When he was a mere Cardinal, Ratzinger requested that all complaints be forwarded direct to the Vatican and that no local authorities were to be informed. Nothing was done except the occasional attempt to unfrock these guys. When you look at the situation in America, there are enormous numbers of these priests, many with Irish names, who also escaped the local authorities.

I too feel sorry for the innocent hundreds of priests who have to undergo the rumour mills and whispers of the ordinary people at large every day.
 
Lex Foutish said:
I don't agree with your first bit above, Betsy. If I was a victim of one of the priests not named in the report, I'd want that abuser to rot in a prison cell for the rest of his life. If I thought that I wouldn't get justice, all because his name was put into the public domain and he got off, claiming the publicity would prevent him getting a fair trial, it would make my living nightmare even worse.
Click to expand...

I think you took me up wrong - when I said subject to the legal concern I meant once that was dealt with then publish ASAP.
 
What is more evil to do the deed or to see it done and do nothing about it. This from those who preach about right and wrong. This from those who hate women and see them as the source of all evil.

Evil, evil, evil. Every single last one of them.

Show me where there is help and compassion and compensation to ALL the victims. Rather show me where these victims rot and die in hostels and psychiatric hospitals in Ireland and the UK or the streets. Many have died in shame where there should have been no shame and lives completely and utterly devastated.

Or show me where Bishops live in Palaces with many servants, with gold plated service and people kneeling to kiss their ring and priests living to old age well cared for in warm homes with money no object for their care.

If people still today think they cannot get a good education for their child unless they bow to the Church, then they become part of that completely evil organisation themselves and perpetuate it. The Church is only about two things, power and money. It's a long long way from This post will be deleted if not edited immediately Christ.
 
RMCF said:
How is it not an evil organisation?

Its people in charge/at the top knew about all this happening, yet did nothing to stop it. They moved the offenders about so that they simply had more 'fresh meat' to prey on, more children to abuse. If you know about evil, harbour it and let it continue to breathe then you yourself are evil. If you never touched a child, yet knew of others doing it and did nothing about it, then in my eyes, and in the eyes of many, you are as evil as the abuser yourself.

I know that there are good people in the CC, but the organisation itself is rotten to the core and so unChristian in its actions. Unfortunately all the good people have been tainted with the sins of the rather large minority.

And don't forget that we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg here. If every single Catholic diocese in the world had an investigation done into it like we have seen here, I am sure the number of offending priests would run into the thousands, and the victim numbers into the tens of thousands, maybe more.
Click to expand...

Again I would reiterate that there were and are men and women who are rotten to the core, they are not the organisation, they used it for their own needs and others were compliant through trying to preserve a public face.
 
MrMan said:
Again I would reiterate that there were and are men and women who are rotten to the core, they are not the organisation, they used it for their own needs and others were compliant through trying to preserve a public face.
Click to expand...


Im lost on this one.
Someone runs the organization, the organization has procedures & structures for it to be an organization. It was this structure that allowed offenders to offend and attracted pure evil in to the organization. Where would a paedophile go to have unlimted access to kids and if when caught nothing really happen, what organization?? let me think!
As i said before if a childrens charity had that level offenders in it and the heiracry knew about it, that ORGANIZATION wouldnt exist today and its heirarcy would be up against serious charges.
 
Did the level of abuse in the North even come close to the South? I don't think it did.

Anyone an expert on Canon Law? Does it's rules mean that you do not have to obey Civil Law ?
 
MrMan said:
Again I would reiterate that there were and are men and women who are rotten to the core, they are not the organisation, they used it for their own needs and others were compliant through trying to preserve a public face.
Click to expand...

I don't get how you cannot see that it is the organisation that is rotton to the core. Where is the Pope and Papal Nuncio with their apolgies and compensation to the victims? They are the core.
 
Bronte said:
Anyone an expert on Canon Law? Does it's rules mean that you do not have to obey Civil Law ?
Click to expand...

I was wondering this too. Why do they keep mentioning Canon law. Surely if abusing a child is against the law it is a crime no matter what. How could anyone use Canon law as some sort of excuse?
 
Bronte said:
Anyone an expert on Canon Law? Does it's rules mean that you do not have to obey Civil Law ?
Click to expand...

I am far from an expert on Canon Law so here's what the Church has to say:

"Finally, lest there be any confusion, and contrary to oft peddled misinformation, there is no conflict between Canon Law and the Civil Law in this country and there is nothing in Canon Law which inhibits or prohibits the citizen's right to exercise those rights which he or she enjoys under the constitution of Ireland. In fact, Canon Law urges the observance of Civil Law except when it is clear that it 'is contrary to divine law' (Canon 22) as has happened for example in totalitarian societies, such as Nazi Germany or Communist Russia. This principle is reminiscent of St Thomas More's famous statement: 'I die the King's good servant but God's first.' "

[broken link removed]
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top