Credit Union prayer - time to leave this anachronism behind

[Complainer]

I'm thinking about submitting a resolution for my CU's AGM this year to drop the CU prayer from all CU meetings. There is no place for religion in the operations of a community financial organisation.

I know this probably isn't the biggest issues for CUs to be dealing with today - but it is something that needs to be changed.

Would anyone like to join me in submitting a similar motion at their own CU? Any suggested wordings for the resolution?

 

[dewdrop]

In view of all that has happened in our financial institutions I think more prayer is needed for wisdom and guidance!

 

[steph1]

And what harm can a little prayer do!

 

[donee]

as an ex board member i always felt strange reciting it before a meeting but would i want it abolished, dont know, but as 'steph1' says what harm can a prayer do.
but in the irish society we live in now maybe a non denominational prayer perhaps.
you got me thinking on that one.............

 

[Mongola]

Does this mean you do have to be Catholic to be on the board of a credit union? If not, you do have to leave the room?
Personnally, it would not bother me, would find it bizare though as it is not a religious institution but from the point of view of an atheist or other religion???

 

[Complainer]

In view of all that has happened in our financial institutions I think more prayer is needed for wisdom and guidance!

Personally, I'd prefer that we rely on good governance and regulation. But if anyone wants to pray for CUs, they are of course welcome to do so on their own time. It is just a bit of a silly tradition that meetings have to start out with a prayer.

And what harm can a little prayer do!

as an ex board member i always felt strange reciting it before a meeting but would i want it abolished, dont know, but as 'steph1' says what harm can a prayer do.

It can exclude people of non-Christian religions and people of no religion. If I suggested that we have a Muslim chant and a rain-dance before the CU meeting, I would be laughed out of the room. But because of this very Irish tradition, we have a Christian prayer.

Does this mean you do have to be Catholic to be on the board of a credit union? If not, you do have to leave the room?

The Irish solution to the Irish problem is that you bow your head and pretend to play along.

Personnally, it would not bother me, would find it bizare though as it is not a religious institution but from the point of view of an atheist or other religion???

Bizarre is the word.

 

[Jim2007]

It can exclude people of non-Christian religions and people of no religion. If I suggested that we have a Muslim chant and a rain-dance before the CU meeting, I would be laughed out of the room. But because of this very Irish tradition, we have a Christian prayer.

Total disagree! You live in Western Europe, it has a predominantly Christian ethos, it's a fact of live you have to learn to accept and deal with. And that is the Swiss attitude to it - we don't teach religion in state schools, but they still celebrate Christmas, Easter and so on. Parents of Muslim children are free to take their children out of school for those periods but most do not because they feel that their children need to get used to living in a Christian society.

We've had Muslim children at both my kids communions and my son's Godfather is Muslim, even the Catholic church did not have a problem with that.

At work last week we had the sudden death of a colleague and prayers were said in the office the following morning - several Muslim colleagues who were doing their Ramadan fast were also in attendance. So yes we do have prayers at work, and that includes banks as well.

I think you need to get a broader perspective on how Christianity is handled in the rest of Europe.

Jim (Switzerland)

 

[newirishman]

A communal prayer at work? A quick prayer at the start CU meeting?
Unless it the company or organisation is publicly related to whatever religion (like I don't know Caritas - a catholic organisation) I think both things are out of place, regardless of circumstances.
For any tragic accidents or death (like death of a colleague) I think the "minute of silence" is much more appropriate.
And at least it doesn't force any beliefs on anyone.

 

[Complainer]

Jim - thanks, it is always good to hear opposing views. My counter-points would be as follows:

1) Are we really in a predominantly Christian society? The Archbishop himself tells us that "On any particular Sunday about 18% of the Catholic population in the Archdiocese of Dublin attends Mass" http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=10535. If these people can't be bothered to get out of the jammies and go to Mass on a Sunday morning, why do they want to bother me with listening to their mumbled ritual prayer.

2) For me, it is not about the CU as a workplace - it is about the CU as a community organisation. If we are going to include the whole community of the 'common bond' (typically those that live or work in a particular area), then we shouldn't get tied up in rituals belonging to one section of that community.

3) I am not anti-prayer or anti-Church. I attend Church rituals myself, and I've no difficulty with prayer happening in its own context. A CU meeting is not the right context for this.

 

[Jim2007]

I would not confuse the Christian ethos with practicing a religion, it is not the same thing at all. I would think that the majority of Europeans baptized into a Christian faith stop practicing their faith in adulthood, but they still see the Christian life style as "the way we do things around here". So they will:

• Have their childern baptized
• Send their childern to religious classes when the time comes
• Send their childern for communion, confirmation and so on
• Expect that people show respect to their religious icons and so on

It is tradition, it's what they grew up with and how they expect it will go on.

In Switzerland, we pay church taxes rather than taking up donations, so when you move to a new town and go to register at the town hall, one of the first questions you are asked is what is your religion? Now everyone has the option to simply state that they are a non believer and avoid the 5% to 7% taxes, but guess what, over 95% will put down one of common forms of religion and go on to pay taxes! And yet if you were to go to one of our churches on a Sunday morning, you'd be look to find 30 people attending the services!!!

Like I said, the ethos is Christian, so expect that Christians will be act as the do and have the supported in doing so. You can't expect the majority of the people to change their ways, just because you have come along...

Jim.

 

[Mongola]

a communal prayer at work? A quick prayer at the start cu meeting?
Unless it the company or organisation is publicly related to whatever religion (like i don't know caritas - a catholic organisation) i think both things are out of place, regardless of circumstances.
For any tragic accidents or death (like death of a colleague) i think the "minute of silence" is much more appropriate.
And at least it doesn't force any beliefs on anyone.

+1

 

[DB74]

Maybe all the Credit Unions should replace the prayer with a minute's silence!

 

[Complainer]

Some quick updates;

1) I'm not the only one to come up with this idea; http://www.atheist.ie/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1699&start=0

2) The CU prayer seems to be a fairly universal phenomenon - it is used in the USA, AUstralia, Caribbean etc

3) AAM has its own credit union, it seems [broken link removed]

 

[Shawady]

Why not replace it with the Shepard's prayer.
It could be extended to all financial institutions.

"Oh Lord, please don't let me f--k up"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Shepard

 

[JoeB]

...., but they still see the Christian life style as "the way we do things around here". So they will:

• Have their childern baptized
• Send their childern to religious classes when the time comes
• Send their childern for communion, confirmation and so on
• Expect that people show respect to their religious icons and so on

It is tradition, it's what they grew up with and how they expect it will go on.

...

Jim.

Not everyone will get their children baptised,.. I am always surprised at the number of parents who hate the RC church, yet they get their children baptised.

Again for the religious classes, unless they deal with all religions, and don't teach the religion as if it's true.

The natural progression of catholic ceremonies is baptism, communion, confirmation, .. and then defection.


Expecting people to show respect to your religious beliefs is my major sticking point. Do you respect the right of Muslim men to have a belief that you are an infidel and that their God is commanding them to kill you? What about respecting the right of others to teach those beliefs to children?


Clearly many religious beliefs are very dangerous, and they promote exclusion... so they are not worthy of respect,.. instead religious beliefs should attract pity or derision, not respect.

It doesn't take any skill to believe in a fairytale... so faith is valueless, even if someone dies for it,.. they could have died for something worthwhile, .. not the continuance of fairytales.

I thnk the prayer is inappropriate.

 

[dereko1969]

Not everyone will get their children baptised,.. I am always surprised at the number of parents who hate the RC church, yet they get their children baptised.

Again for the religious classes, unless they deal with all religions, and don't teach the religion as if it's true.

The natural progression of catholic ceremonies is baptism, communion, confirmation, .. and then defection.


Expecting people to show respect to your religious beliefs is my major sticking point. Do you respect the right of Muslim men to have a belief that you are an infidel and that their God is commanding them to kill you? What about respecting the right of others to teach those beliefs to children?


Clearly many religious beliefs are very dangerous, and they promote exclusion... so they are not worthy of respect,.. instead religious beliefs should attract pity or derision, not respect.

It doesn't take any skill to believe in a fairytale... so faith is valueless, even if someone dies for it,.. they could have died for something worthwhile, .. not the continuance of fairytales.

I thnk the prayer is inappropriate.

Where in the Qu'ran does it state that all infidels are to be killed?

 

[T McGibney]

The natural progression of catholic ceremonies is baptism, communion, confirmation, .. and then defection.

Really? How many Irish Catholics 'defect' each year? Last time I checked, most Irish Catholics still prefer to marry in a church, and have their funeral in a church.

Do you respect the right of Muslim men to have a belief that you are an infidel and that their God is commanding them to kill you?

What a repellent statement.

 

[JoeB]

My point is that it is absolutely silly to have a blanket respect for beliefs just because they are religious.

Respecting beliefs allows them to continue, and I feel strongly that the world would be a better place without religion.

I understand that many people pity me because I have no faith, and because I think religion is a waste of time.

 

[T McGibney]

My point is that it is absolutely silly to have a blanket respect for beliefs just because they are religious.

But that's hardly at issue here? What we're discussing is a Christian custom (incidentally, not a Catholic one as some here have assumed), not a religious belief or set of beliefs

Anyway, this doesn't not give you carte blanche to make disgraceful comments about any religion.

Respecting beliefs allows them to continue, and I feel strongly that the world would be a better place without religion.

Would you prefer that religious belief be made illegal a la Stalin et al?

 

[JoeB]

I shouldn't have used the example I did. I should have used the Jehovahs Witnesses who refuse blood transfusions, for themselves and also for their children. A judge in Ireland recently had to get up in the middle of the night to grant doctors permission to override the parents religious decision.

Teaching that belief to children is wrong, as children are gullible, and have been designed by evolution to be so. So it does represent child abuse, and the sooner it is recognised as such the better. Hence the extreme examples.