Children selling gambling products door-to-door

[mathepac]

When I contacted child protection services by phone they asked me for names, descriptions, addresses, parents names, ages, etc, etc, etc. I told them repeatedly that running investigations into potential harm was a matter for them and the Guards. I suggested that for a change instead of waiting for harm to occur, they intervene at an early stage and try to minimise it. The person I spoke to shared my concerns about exposing children to gambling activity at any level and acknowledged the problem I saw, but didn't see a role for them as they had no names etc. They insisted on taking the conversation around in circles repeating questions I'd already answered.

Once again we appear to have one of these quangos that only reacts when harm has occurred. What happened to adopting a proactive (the most abused and misunderstood word in Irish public service) role and preventing harm in the first place? Listening to what my contact said today "protection" has no place in the name or activities of the organisation concerned although I accept they may have an important role to play in the recovery of a damaged child. They asked me if a crime had been committed and I repeated that was a matter for them and the Guards to establish given that I had voiced my concerns to the appropriate agency. I ended the the conversation by asking if they understood why I wouldn't be quizzing children about their names etc. They acknowledged that they understood and also at some stage managed to drag GDPR into the conversation!

Disappointing to say the least, but not quite as disappointing as Leo's disgusting question above.

[EDIT] reduce redundancy

 

[Steven Barrett]

When I contacted child protection services by phone they asked me for names, descriptions, addresses, parents names, ages, etc, etc, etc. I told them repeatedly that running investigations into potential harm was a matter for them and the Guards. I suggested that for a change instead of waiting for harm to occur, they intervene at an early stage and try to minimise it. The person I spoke to shared my concerns about exposing children to gambling activity at any level and acknowledged the problem I saw, but didn't see a role for them as they had no names etc. They insisted on taking the conversation around in circles repeating questions I'd already answered.

Once again we appear to have one of these quangos that only reacts when harm has occurred. What happened to adopting a proactive (the most abused and misunderstood word in Irish public service) role and preventing harm in the first place? Listening to what my contact said today "protection" has no place in the name or activities of the organisation concerned although I accept they may have an important role to play in the recovery of a damaged child. They asked me if a crime had been committed and I repeated that was a matter for them and the Guards to establish given that I had voiced my concerns to the appropriate agency. I ended the the conversation by asking if they understood why I wouldn't be quizzing children about their names etc. They acknowledged that they understood and also at some stage managed to drag GDPR into the conversation!

Disappointing to say the least, but not quite as disappointing as Leo's disgusting question above.

[EDIT] reduce redundancy

I don't know if this is serious or someone having a laugh.

There was a video on TikTok of a woman who phoned 911 to complain that her kids were fighting with each other and can the police come and sort it out. The dispatcher asked "Do you want the police to shot them?"

What do you want? The children place in foster care because their parents sent them out door to door selling for a fund raiser*? (*this is an assumption because you never established what they were selling it for). It is well known that child protection services are unstaffed and unresourced yet you want them to spend time chasing up on a frivolous case where children are clearly in no danger and are just doing some fund raising.

 

[Leper]

I was the first to complain about the issue here. @mathpac posted in order that somebody somewhere would somehow be helped along the way. I wish to disassociate myself from some of the Smart Alec comments by some posters.

 

[mathepac]

I don't know if this is serious or someone having a laugh.

There was a video on TikTok of a woman who phoned 911 to complain that her kids were fighting with each other and can the police come and sort it out. The dispatcher asked "Do you want the police to shot them?"

What do you want? The children place in foster care because their parents sent them out door to door selling for a fund raiser*? (*this is an assumption because you never established what they were selling it for).

I don't find the observed facts as presented the least bit funny. If you find the matter potentially risible then we are in much deeper trouble than I suspected.

If the best you can do is to refer to a low-rent social media post from the USA about shooting children then I despair.

I have made it abundantly clear what I want to happen - I want the activity described, unaccompanied children selling gambling products door-to-door, stopped because it places them at risk. If you see the issue I raised as frivolous, then I'm grateful for those with more caring and insightful perspectives.

It is well known that child protection services are unstaffed and unresourced yet you want them to spend time chasing up on a frivolous case where children are clearly in no danger and are just doing some fund raising.

It certainly is not well known to me that they are "unstafffed" as I spoke to to people in their offices this week. They are certainly not "unresourced" as they have premises, staff (at least two I spoke to), a website that's more about self-aggrandisement than protecting children, and according to that web-site, substantial annual budgets.

 

[Leo]

If you talk to experts in the area and ignore the cranks, involving children in fundraising activities is highly recommended as it helps teach them a wide range of valuable life skills. It helps them to value the services and facilities they avail of, and what it takes to keep those services running along with gaining a sense of ownership and accountability for them. They also gain an understanding of the importance of philanthropy and getting involved in society, the value of money, teamwork, communication, etc. etc.. It also makes it very clear to them that raffles for a few token prizes are no way to make money!!

There is a very good reason why lottery type activities involving the prediction of future events are treated entirely differently in the legislation. No gambling addict was ever created spending €2 to win a box of chocolates.

 

[mathepac]

There's a huge difference between children participating in fund-raising activities like sales of work, sponsored walks, runs, cycles etc, and promoting gambling.

Please point me to any sources documenting the benefits of exposing children to gambling activities by calling on strangers doot-to-door unsupervised by a responsible adult.

 

[mathepac]

There is a very good reason why lottery type activities involving the prediction of future events are treated entirely differently in the legislation. No gambling addict was ever created spending €2 to win a box of chocolates.

Where did I post that I was approached about predicting any future event by the two children last Sunday? As you weren't a witness to what happened, where did this version of events come from?

If it could be established exactly what first gambling activity triggers compulsive gambling, we'd be a long way down the road to prevention. If you have insight here it could be very helpful.

Does it matter to the alcoholic whether that first drink that led them down the road to problem drinking was vodka, wine, or a beer shandy? The experts tell us it doesn't matter, all that matters is that alcohol is a mind and mood-altering substance, just like for the compulsive gambler, the activity is mind and mood altering.

 

[Annieindublin]

Just curious about the age of the children.

Big difference between 7 and 17 but I’m guessing it’s under 12

Round my way under 12s would be out playing unsupervised, like there’d be a parent or two in a garden keeping a causal eye on them but overall no supervision.

Other places I’ve lived that wouldn’t have been the case.

kids up the road regularly run sales, they set up a table, sell cookies and lemonade or old toys. They often do a draw or a bottle stall. They are usually open about what the money is for, a big poster.. help us buy a new puppy, or once a pet monkey, it’s cute. Never occurred to me that it was a potential gambling issue.

These kids are around 11 or 12, they’ve been doing it for years,

I would be concerned if they were knocking on doors, that isn’t safe IMO. We don’t know the neighbours anymore BUT of course in the 1970s we thought we were safe as everyone knew everyone. Turns out we weren’t and the swimming teacher and scout leader were more dangerous than the strangers!

Anyway should I call the gardai? Or warn their parents? Or just tell the kids not to run draws and stick to the selling of cookies.

 

[Leo]

Anyway should I call the gardai? Or warn their parents? Or just tell the kids not to run draws and stick to the selling of cookies.

Perhaps just remain happy that children are allowed participate in activities that further their development and prepare them for the real world and they don't have a crank for a neighbour they need to hide from

The ever-increasing nannying of children is developing a generation with increasing mental health issues who fall apart when presented with even mild challenges later in life.

 

[Leo]

Please point me to any sources documenting the benefits of exposing children to gambling activities by calling on strangers doot-to-door unsupervised by a responsible adult.

Given you raised the concern, how about you point me to evidence that selling a few raffle tickets results in gambling addictions or worse? All my peers grew up doing it and I can't say I know anyone who is a problem gambler, most don't partake at all.

 

[mathepac]

Just curious about the age of the children.

Pre-teen in my estimation, the youngest probably less than ten.

After leaving me, they knocked next door!

 

[mathepac]

@Leo, you first. I asked you a number of questions and you haven't replied to them. When I get your answers, I'll be better able to respond to you, if I choose to. Responding to questions with questions is of course the classic ploy in attempting to derail a discussion or debate. It adds zero value and the hope is it leads to inappropriate responses.

Most people wouldn't recognise a problem gambler, or problem gambling. It is referred to as the "hidden addiction" as there are few if any visible signs or symptoms.

Participation in gambling activity by children is one of my concerns. Approaching strangers in this activity unsupervised by a responsible adult is another.

 

[Steven Barrett]

I don't find the observed facts as presented the least bit funny. If you find the matter potentially risible then we are in much deeper trouble than I suspected.

If the best you can do is to refer to a low-rent social media post from the USA about shooting children then I despair.

I have made it abundantly clear what I want to happen - I want the activity described, unaccompanied children selling gambling products door-to-door, stopped because it places them at risk. If you see the issue I raised as frivolous, then I'm grateful for those with more caring and insightful perspectives.



It certainly is not well known to me that they are "unstafffed" as I spoke to to people in their offices this week. They are certainly not "unresourced" as they have premises, staff (at least two I spoke to), a website that's more about self-aggrandisement than protecting children, and according to that web-site, substantial annual budgets.

You reported children to the gardai and children protection for selling raffle tickets!!! I find the whole incident extremely funny and so incredible I still don't fully believe it.

 

[mathepac]

You reported children to the gardai and children protection for selling raffle tickets!!! I find the whole incident extremely funny and so incredible I still don't fully believe it.

I never reported the children for selling raffle tickets. Read my posts.

 

[Leo]

You raised a concern based on what most people would consider a perfectly normal childhood activity, one the majority of children raised here are involved in at one point or another. You have provided no basis whatsoever for your concern. Even the gambling addiction services campaigning on childhood gambling addiction make no reference to this in their long list of activities that potentially introduce children to gambling.

I've searched the academic portals for any evidence linking risk of gambling addiction or other developmental issues to engagement in fundraising including raffles, funnily enough there's nothing there.

 

[torblednam]

I keep checking this thread, waiting for the punchline or the big reveal, where @mathepac shouts "gotcha!" but I think maybe it's not coming

The conflation of handing over €2 for a draw you've no interest in being in, or chance of winning, with problem gambling strikes me as bizarre.

Likewise the apparent implication that kids being sent out to try to sell entries to said draw, are somehow being introduced to a slippery slope to problem gambling, seems fanciful to me, too.

The episode of Father Ted with the car draw keeps popping into my mind...

 

[The Horseman]

Is this a wind up thread? There are two pages of posts for what appears to be children doing what we all did at some point in life. Sold tickets for local football clubs, GAA clubs etc. Okay if it is a scam you at worst lost €2.

Is it not up to the parents to be concerned what their children are doing? The image of Victor Meldrew just keeps popping into my head.

Since this thread started we have gone down the "rabbit hole" that this could lead to problem gambling etc seriously lads talk about taking a giant leap.

 

[mathepac]

The person I spoke to [EDIT: in our child protection services quango] shared my concerns about exposing children to gambling activity at any level and acknowledged the problem I saw, but didn't see a role for them as they had no names etc.

About the only thing we agreed on during the phone call. This person, presumably a qualified professional in the field, saw the activity I reported as problematic. So where does that leave the glorious keyboard warriors on AAM? I suggest contacting your local child protection services and hear what they have to say to you, then maybe you can express better-informed opinions.

Unless that is you are already professionals in child protection services. I'm not which is why I sought help and advice from those organisations chartered with child protection.

 

[mathepac]

You raised a concern based on what most people would consider a perfectly normal childhood activity, one the majority of children raised here are involved in at one point or another. You have provided no basis whatsoever for your concern. Even the gambling addiction services campaigning on childhood gambling addiction make no reference to this in their long list of activities that potentially introduce children to gambling.

I've searched the academic portals for any evidence linking risk of gambling addiction or other developmental issues to engagement in fundraising including raffles, funnily enough there's nothing there.

read the OP. I provided two areas for concern, one shared by child protection services.

[EDIT: Sorry I missed this bit]

"The prevalence of problem gambling among children is rising fast. There are no research
figures available for Ireland but the number of UK children, age 11-16 years old, with gambling
problems has quadrupled in the last two years."

Bolding is mine.

Source: https://www.problemgambling.ie/https://www.problemgambling.ie/

 

[24601]

I never reported the children for selling raffle tickets. Read my posts.

Do you honestly have nothing better to be doing with your life? I don't think I've ever seen someone react to something so trivial in such an overblown, hysterical manner. It's actually incredible to me that you don't see an issue with attempting to land the authorities on the doorstep of these kids' parents because they dared to sell a few raffle tickets for something you didn't even bother to find out about.