We're repeating a very old debate that's been flogged to death so lets not go beyond this. I'll just even this up and we can move on. BTC can be used for international settlement. It can be used for cross-border remittances, for payment in terms of goods and services, etc. You can't use gold for any of those purposes. As Fink put it, "the cost of transacting gold is absurd."...his second point being that Bitcoin is truly international and borderless unlike any other currency. It's also auditable via a public blockchain where auditing of gold reserves has been a very controversial thing to say the least.Bitcoin, eh, you can sell it to some other idiot is all I can think of
I Googled "monetary premium" tagged with Wikipedia and Investopedia. No hits.
Yeah, I kind of figured that out - given that you blanked the 8 or 10 requests to consider it - in line with the whole purpose of me posting it in the first place....but you do you Duke. I know you'd never want to even consider anything that might lead back to your central bank friends, reflecting on them negatively. Your inability to climb out of your foxhole on this subject makes absolutely no difference to whats going on in the world in any event.Not really interested
I presume that's you (not the guy with the gold face)Predicating accurately the virality of a story is an impossible task.....in hindsight however you can with a high degree of certainty spot the zenith of a story/narrative/cultural meme and the peak for BTC was quite clearly 2021 (my Satoshi statue photos date from then & so does the ATH price).
Humans like stories......but we are also novelty seeking......so what we really like are new stories......BTC is now an old tired story....and its becoming more wearisome with each telling.
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I presume that's you (not the guy with the gold face)
1071 or 1971 ?I tried to read that stuff with an open mind and blank out the ridiculous conclusion.
I looked at what he said about the S&P 500. An investment in it since 1071 would yield an astonishing 200/1 return. Inflation was 30/1 in the period. Ergo a monetary premium. Wrong! The 200/1 was with reinvested income. Without that the actual value of the companies increased 45/1. I am surprised there wasn't more "real" growth given that the period witnessed the Internet and a technological revolution.
But let's not let facts in the way of a propagandist polemic.
1071. That's the historical timeline the Duke is stuck in when it comes to his 'enlightened' consideration of this topic.1071 or 1971 ?
We have to give the one with the golden face something to cling on to, and he grabbed.1071 or 1971 ?
I presume that's you (not the guy with the gold face)
Ok but you asked earlier what progress since 2021 - when all hell has broken loose, in addition to what was already going to be a classic hype cycle crash for bitcoin. To get into those trillion dollar market cap ranges the bigger money will be necessary. That means a spot ETF for bitcoin in the US among other things. People tend to throw things out if they're not meeting the timeframe they have in mind but these things take time. Whatever way you look at it, there's a hell of a lot more going on re. bitcoin now than when these discussions started 5 years ago. Bear in mind also that we've also just witnessed the 55 year overnight success that has been AI.
It may be an old debate, but I don't think we have the same understanding of intrinsic value. The advantages you mention for Bitcoin can be debated, but none of those are a form of intrinsic value.We're repeating a very old debate that's been flogged to death so lets not go beyond this. I'll just even this up and we can move on. BTC can be used for international settlement. It can be used for cross-border remittances, for payment in terms of goods and services, etc. You can't use gold for any of those purposes. As Fink put it, "the cost of transacting gold is absurd."...his second point being that Bitcoin is truly international and borderless unlike any other currency. It's also auditable via a public blockchain where auditing of gold reserves has been a very controversial thing to say the least.
I did say this before, nearly 5 years ago. I cannot think what to add.You said this before and it's discussed in this thread
Bitcoin is not like gold
It is much closer to speculating in gold than betting on horses. Buying bitcoin has really very little in common with investing in gold. Gold has an intrinsic value - bitcoin has none Gold is difficult to value - it's hard to justify $1,300 per oz. But Bitcoin is easy to value - it's...www.askaboutmoney.com
Yes what progress has it made in adoption, just interested in what metric use to measure? You're saying it needs a Spot ETF amongst other things to get into the trillion dollar market cap, that would indicate the progress thus far (100s of millions of users) hasn't got the adoption to where it needs to be?
Continues to be hampered by a lack of clarity re. regulation. That said, there are more corporations and funds holding BTC than there were when discussion here started - but it's just a drop in the ocean still. I'm open to correction but a quick google is pointing to around 50 - 60% institutional investor level in ETFs.I don't believe a spot ETF will be a turning point, it certainly won't bring in the big money. ETFs are retail products mostly, if anything it will just pull retail US investors from the Crypto exchanges to TradFI platforms. This arguably will lessen btc/blockchain adoption because users won't have to interact with the underlying technology (private keys, digital wallets etc).
Big money has never had more access to the market than it does right now, but they aren't jumping in i.e. EDX Markets.
I guess the point I made was lost on you. It's the 55 year old overnight success story.As you mentioned AI, it is possible for a new technology to be rapidly adopted, so we can't always hide behind 'these things take time'
We probably don't.It may be an old debate, but I don't think we have the same understanding of intrinsic value. The advantages you mention for Bitcoin can be debated, but none of those are a form of intrinsic value.
Good question. Such metrics are imperfect. If we go back to the start of this debate until now, then the entire market is bigger, the market cap is much bigger (even if it doesn't go up in a straight line due to hype cycles). I'd have to dig out the data but I believe that there are 100 million BTC wallets out there now. From what I recall, there's been a greater distribution of BTC towards regular Joe's in terms of amount of BTC held.
In recent days, I believe we also hit a new ATH in terms of the number of mature bitcoin holders holding BTC over the longer term.
I don't believe it's any one thing. I believe that the ETF can help to broaden the market - and that will be better in terms of reducing volatility. It won't be any cake walk however, as Wall Street will test the asset and try and manipulate it - as they've done successfully with gold. While I don't think Fink & Co. have BTCs best interests at heart, that doesn't mean they can't inadvertently help its progression also.
That's only one item. There are any amount of items that can assist in making further in-roads. From a personal perspective, I want to be able to use the asset as and when I want - for whatever I want. To take it to that point, its network effect needs to continue to grow and with greater network effect comes greater utility.
You said you worked in crypto. I think it would be useful if you let us know your thoughts. Are you pro-decentralized crypto or against, while skeptical or against BTC...or do you not work with properly decentralized projects at all? That would be a useful insight to provide.
Continues to be hampered by a lack of clarity re. regulation. That said, there are more corporations and funds holding BTC than there were when discussion here started - but it's just a drop in the ocean still. I'm open to correction but a quick google is pointing to around 50 - 60% institutional investor level in ETFs.
I guess the point I made was lost on you. It's the 55 year old overnight success story.
In recent years an ETF has been presented by some as the holy grail. I don't see it that way. To me, it's a case of a 1,000 different things that can help to allow Bitcoin to seep into more general use. And to your point, price movement is price movement but less volatility could be something that results in another tranche of people thinking that this now works for me much better. So it can definitely have an indirect effect.100m wallets and that growth rate is the indicator of adoption more than an ETF. Yes maybe an etf will provide a price improvement but not adoption. Wall St already has as much access to crypto as it needs, an etf isn't a complete unlock to a new market.
In recent years an ETF has been presented by some as the holy grail. I don't see it that way. To me, it's a case of a 1,000 different things that can help to allow Bitcoin to seep into more general use. And to your point, price movement is price movement but less volatility could be something that results in another tranche of people thinking that this now works for me much better. So it can definitely have an indirect effect.
Why should the price of bitcoin go to zero, if the price of gold hasn't gone to zero over the millennia. Neither have any intrinsic value.
Gold has been a reliable store of value for millennia due to its scarcity value and reputation. Bitcoin has a very cleverly constructed scarcity value and has a reputation among enough people to achieve and sustain significant valuations. I don't understand why that should disappear anymore than I understand why it arose.
As someone who shares neither tecate's corrosive cynicism about central banks, nor Duke's panglossian view, although I do see some merit in the idea they have done well over recent decades.
I like my investments to have some intrinsic value. Part ownership in a company, bricks and mortar sound about right.
Thanks for the LINK. I have downloaded the paper and (genuinely) look forward to reading it. From the Abstract it promises to be the greatest load of pretentious hubris, so no prizes for guessing that it will convince me that this is all one massive self* delusion.Here's another paper for the bould Duke. This one, published last year, was produced by three BlackRock boffins. When Smithers brings you the bowl of crunchie nut cornflakes and the Oirish Times this morning, put the Times down and have a read of this ->
https://deliverypdf.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=198103020022127074091109011077071122042048077048056085078022015029082026117121084105061019106057060060051027090096076065117018023021012013031110065123003112107071036008065111121013088101078020127076122068080099019123087086029091127111083026081066&EXT=pdf&INDEX=TRUE (LINK)
These guys suggest a minimum 3% BTC holding and an optimal holding of 9.5% for investors who already have a portfolio of equities and bonds. Careful, don't choke on the crunchie nuts.
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