Key Post Bitcoin is a clearly identifiable economic bubble

tecate

You can't calculate the price of BTC because it has no value.

The value is zero. The eventual price will be zero.

I thought I could predict the limits of the stupidity of the BTC advocates, but I was wrong. the stupidity appears unlimited.
Why should the price of bitcoin go to zero, if the price of gold hasn't gone to zero over the millennia. Neither have any intrinsic value.

Gold has been a reliable store of value for millennia due to its scarcity value and reputation. Bitcoin has a very cleverly constructed scarcity value and has a reputation among enough people to achieve and sustain significant valuations. I don't understand why that should disappear anymore than I understand why it arose.

As someone who shares neither tecate's corrosive cynicism about central banks, nor Duke's panglossian view, although I do see some merit in the idea they have done well over recent decades.

I like my investments to have some intrinsic value. Part ownership in a company, bricks and mortar sound about right.
 
I've read posts about climate change - it's my tasse de thé. My comments earlier today were fair and met with incredible denials. 'Nuff said.

But fill your boots, try and big up what you perceive to be an absurdity - like you did when BTC was at $5K, $10K....and oh yeah, let's not forget $20K Duke.

You so wrong here, Tecate! From the link you helpfully provided yesterday, the Duke has been rubbishing BTC when it was $180. Go figure.
 
Why should the price of bitcoin go to zero, if the price of gold hasn't gone to zero over the millennia.

You said this before and it's discussed in this thread

 
Someone posted a forecast, calculation, that BTC would be between €500k and millions.
Tecate -you are saying that it was not a forecast.
But now you, they are saying that they were only joking?
The BTC forecasts have been so bizarre, I see no reason not to have believed it was someone making a genuine forecast.
In terms of the advancement of the discussion, price forecasting is very much the uninteresting part of the equation that has already been done to death and won't advance anyone's understanding. It's a speculative activity that can be summarized as follows. You believe that BTC has zero utility and it's going to zero (ultimately). You believe that BTC has utility and has an ever growing network effect, then its intuitive that its price will increase given its a finite asset. I really don't think its useful to get into models and calculations (beyond what has already been covered here ad nauseum in the past), as that relies on ifs, buts and other speculative elements.

What had not been covered before was 'the everything bubble' and it's why I cited that write-up. The BTC price calculation based on predefined assumptions was the least interesting part of that. I tried to steer the discussion towards consideration of that idea but the Duke was hell bent on discussing anything but that.

I like my investments to have some intrinsic value. Part ownership in a company, bricks and mortar sound about right.
Sounds like a pragmatic view to hold on the topic as far as I can see. On this aspect of it, of course BTC is one particular type of asset. It's a tool in the toolbox - nobody is suggesting for a second that it has to replace other asset types. Every such asset type brings its own unique characteristics to the party.
You so wrong here, Tecate! From the link you helpfully provided yesterday, the Duke has been rubbishing BTC when it was $180. Go figure.
I don't always get things right...my bad. :)
 
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You so wrong here, Tecate! From the link you helpfully provided yesterday, the Duke has been rubbishing BTC when it was $180. Go figure.
You have declined my request to express an opinion on the very topical outrageous suggestion that it is an "extremely conservative scenario where bitcoin would be $500,000". You have excused yourself by saying that your area of expertise is climate change. Fair enough, but I am at odds to understand why you chose to play the man by going back to a post in 2015. Let me remind you of my position then as it is now. I was and still am 100% behind the vast majority of experts and unanimous Nobel Laureate consensus on this matter. Their views on this have not changed one iota as bitcoin rose from 1 pizza per 25 to $67,000 and back to less than half that.
Now "you know who" rebuffs this reliance on the wise men and women by citing the example of one of their number getting the Internet wrong. In the immortal words of Abraham Lincoln: "one Nobel Laureate can be wrong some of the time, they can't all be wrong all of the time."
 
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The BTC forecasts have been so bizarre, I see no reason not to have believed it was someone making a genuine forecast.

Predicating accurately the virality of a story is an impossible task.....in hindsight however you can with a high degree of certainty spot the zenith of a story/narrative/cultural meme and the peak for BTC was quite clearly 2021 (my Satoshi statue photos date from then & so does the ATH price).

Humans like stories......but we are also novelty seeking......so what we really like are new stories......BTC is now an old tired story....and its becoming more wearisome with each telling.

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You have declined my request to express an opinion on the very topical outrageous suggestion that it is an "extremely conservative scenario where bitcoin would be $500,000".
If bitcoin continues to grow to the extent that it captures any significant percentage of the worlds wealth then the 500k number is conservative, as the data showed. The number just seems astronomically big because 1 bitcoin is a much larger unit than we're used to measuring things in. If you measure gold by the ton instead of the ounce it has a huge price too.
 
If bitcoin continues to grow to the extent that it captures any significant percentage of the worlds wealth then the 500k number is conservative, as the data showed. The number just seems astronomically big because 1 bitcoin is a much larger unit than we're used to measuring things in. If you measure gold by the ton instead of the ounce it has a huge price too.
:eek: I had put you down on the rational end of the bitcoin spectrum my dear DiP. A lot of Jesuitical conditionality in there but I am taking it that you see no issue with the statement that "it is an extremely conservative scenario that sees a $500k bitcoin price". Gee you might even be beyond the @tecate slot on the spectrum.:)
Any views on the $11m speculation? Please don't answer that if it reaches that market penetration then it will be $11m; that is tautological.
 
Has Bitcoin seen much of an increase in Adoption since 2021?

I've seen novel use cases, and some have been posted on this thread, but I've not seen a lot move from pilot to mainstream adoption.

Having worked in the crypto industry throughout the latest 'crypto winter', it was a product that was struggling to find a product / market fit. I think at this point you can separate Bitcoin entirely from the rest of the crypto industry (web3, L1 chains etc).
 
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What does "extremely conservative" mean - 95% possibility?
M. Guignard builds up to these eye watering conclusions with an impressive array of illustrations and a pseudo economic analysis.
So he concludes that there is a, say, 95% chance that it will multiply 20 fold on today's price and, say, a 25% chance that it will reach 400 times today's price.
I have to concede that bitcoin is not going to zero any time soon whilst this sort of garbage is being pedalled on social media.
 

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Any views on the $11m speculation? Please don't answer that if it reaches that market penetration then it will be $11m; that is tautological.
In all honesty I've no other way to think about it. The price will just be a function of demand, and there's no hard limit on that beneath the meme of everything divided by 21 million. All I can do is try to evaluate whether there will be demand and the best way of thinking about that is in relation to the current demand, which the current price corresponds to.

I've a lot more to say on this, I'll gather my thoughts into a post soon.
 
If bitcoin continues to grow to the extent that it captures any significant percentage of the worlds wealth then the 500k number is conservative,

How do you measure the current percentage of the worlds wealth held in Bitcoin? Is there a chart showing this since its inception?
 
How do you measure the current percentage of the worlds wealth held in Bitcoin? Is there a chart showing this since its inception?
First you calculate Bitcoin's 'market cap' by multipying supply of bitcoin by current price and I get about $600b (the $400b value in the diagram below is out of date)

Then from the earlier mentioned "Bitcoin's Role in Deflating the Everything Bubble" article, that is compared to estimates of everything else:

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First you calculate Bitcoin's 'market cap' by multipying supply of bitcoin by current price and I get about $600b (the $400b value in the diagram below is out of date)

Then from the earlier mentioned "Bitcoin's Role in Deflating the Everything Bubble" article, that is compared to estimates of everything else:

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And this is also why consideration of the 'everything bubble' as per that guys write-up was well worth delving into. To my knowledge it has not been discussed here previously when most other items (such as price forecasting/modelling, etc.) have been done to death without reaching anything other than polarized conclusions. Does anyone deny that a monetary premium has developed where a whole host of other assets are concerned as a direct result of monetary policy over the past decade or more?


The subject was glossed over and that's a missed opportunity (assuming folks have a genuine interest in developing a better understanding on the subject that is).
 
@tecate if you insist. Obviously there is an inflationary premium, that is just the debasement of the numeraire which increases the value of everything including baked beans. The guy seems to be pointing to something in addition to inflation. Something about money itself is no longer considered as an asset and so other assets go up to fill the vacuum. I would expect this to manifest itself in increasing P/E ratios, he didn't go there. Clearly house prices have surpassed inflation. I suspect there are other demographic factors besides a monetary premium. More importantly the great gains in productivity have meant incomes have beaten inflation and this obviously feeds into the price of property. I suggest that the guy's analysis is a tad superficial and was contrived to get to his main point - the outrageous potential for the bitcoin price.
As @DazedInPontoon rightly states it is all about supply and demand. We know the supply for bitcoin is fixed, so in its case it is really allabout demand.
IMHO that demand whilst originally was to buy 2 pizzas is now almost entirely speculative, and by speculative I include store of value. I further humbly suggest that there is negligible demand for its intended "utility" i.e. as a better way to transact digitally for real goods and services.
Speculative potential and store of value are not a utility and cannot sustain a NGU indefinitely.
 
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@tecate if you insist. Obviously there is an inflationary premium, that is just the debasement of the numeraire which increases the value of everything including baked beans. The guy seems to be pointing to something in addition to inflation. Something about money itself is no longer considered as an asset and so other assets go up to fill the vacuum. I would expect this to manifest itself in increasing P/E ratios, he didn't go there. Clearly house prices have surpassed inflation. I suspect there are other demographic factors besides a monetary premium. More importantly the great gains in productivity have meant incomes have beaten inflation and this obviously feeds into the price of property.
So it can't just be a garden variety 'inflationary premium'. We've only had run away inflation the past couple of years. He's referring to a monetary premium - as a direct result of the monetary policy that has been pursued by central banks. You mention property - and its a classic example. Are those demographic factors true everywhere in the western world - because property has become unaffordable in lots of places for the 20 somethings. If incomes were ahead of that, they wouldn't be priced out so that's not it.


Property is very much used as a store of value but to the extent that it has - to the point where its a societal drawback, there should be some consideration of that.

I suggest that the guy's analysis is a tad superficial and was contrived to get to his main point - the outrageous potential for the bitcoin price.
Disagree entirely - monetary premium has been talked about a lot. I haven't time right now but I'm sure I could point to a wealth of discussion on the topic.

Other than that your entire focus is on price forecasting, inviting folks to be outraged by the suggestion of a much higher BTC unit price. Completely pointless - there are X% of folks here that believe that Bitcoin succeeds and continues to develop and X% who think the opposite. If the latter are dug in on that then completely pointless to discuss future price. I could come at it another way. If BTC accounts for $400B of value today, at one stage reaching $1T of value, what would the unit price be if it hit a $10T market cap? Lets not waste time on you (once again) outlining that this can't happen because its a thing of speculation - we've all heard that. Just do the calc. and let me know (or lets leave the price thing aside entirely - because I don't really think its helpful given the current stage of development of this discussion here).
 
Does anyone deny that a monetary premium has developed where a whole host of other assets are concerned as a direct result of monetary policy over the past decade or more?
I think about this a bit. So the economic theory driving monetary policy seems to be that you don't want people to have savings, instead you encourage people to invest instead of save by having inflation devalue savings. This seems to assume that investment is generally productive, or in other words that there is sufficient useful stuff to invest all that capital in, and you also end up at kind of "infinite growth" narrative that modern society is based on. Always borrowing from tomorrow with the assumption that tomorrow's growth will cover what we're spending today.

So I ask myself what if this is too hopeful a premise? What would it look like if the growth isn't there? What symptoms would we see if there's too much capital? I imagine one of the first symptoms would be that stable profitable businesses see their PE ratio increase as there is more money chasing those businesses than before. Here's the data on the S&P 500: https://www.gurufocus.com/economic_indicators/57/pe-ratio-ttm-for-the-sp-500 . It's been pretty high the last couple of decades compared to historically.

What *should happen* is that the businesses can harness the high share prices to grow their businesses, but we're imaging a scenario where this isn't possible, so what would happen then. Some would actually try to grow the business, but fail to do so which keeps the PE ratio high. Others with too much cash and no idea of how to use it productively might return it to investors by buying back shares or keeping it in a treasury (see: Apple).

As the PE ratios of successful businesses rise the risk to reward ratio diminishes - they become worse value - so it becomes an increasingly less attractive option so money is diverted to other things instead. If profitable companies seem overpriced what do you do? One option is to instead throw money at startups via venture capital, and an increase in this would lead to both more startup funding, and funding of riskier startups that may not even have any roadmap for profit yet.

Alternatively you could decide to avoid the stock market altogether since it seems bad value and perhaps then due to crash. You could go with bonds but again if there's too much money chasing bonds the bond issuers can sell them at a low enough rate that you're back to the same problem of savings where you're losing real value to inflation.

Another alternative then is other assets, anything that you can think of that might act as a better store of value than savings or bonds to some degree - real estate, collectables, art, gold, bitcoin etc. Excess money flowing into these would mean they increase at a rate higher than inflation.

Seems to me like all of this has been happening.
 
First you calculate Bitcoin's 'market cap' by multipying supply of bitcoin by current price and I get about $600b (the $400b value in the diagram below is out of date)

Then from the earlier mentioned "Bitcoin's Role in Deflating the Everything Bubble" article, that is compared to estimates of everything else:

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Right, but asset values are variable, so it would be better to measure growth rates i.e. whats the percentage of Bitcoin market value vs global asset value over time. This would indicate if Bitcoin is actually gaining a share of the wealth.

The above is just showing BTC as a very small part of Global Asset values with speculation that if it takes some of that share it will lead to a greater price.


Also that Asset Value table has 7 components, BTC can't replace Equities, Real Estate, Art, Bonds, Collectibles right? i.e. they have specific functions that can't be replicated by btc.

At this point is it stating BTC is an investment vehicle or as a global currency?
 
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The above is just showing BTC as a very small part of Global Asset values with speculation that if it takes some of that share it will lead to a greater price.
Ok but you asked earlier what progress since 2021 - when all hell has broken loose, in addition to what was already going to be a classic hype cycle crash for bitcoin. To get into those trillion dollar market cap ranges the bigger money will be necessary. That means a spot ETF for bitcoin in the US among other things. People tend to throw things out if they're not meeting the timeframe they have in mind but these things take time. Whatever way you look at it, there's a hell of a lot more going on re. bitcoin now than when these discussions started 5 years ago. Bear in mind also that we've also just witnessed the 55 year overnight success that has been AI.
 
Why should the price of bitcoin go to zero, if the price of gold hasn't gone to zero over the millennia. Neither have any intrinsic value.
You can make very nice jewelry out of gold. Gold also has useful properties for coating certain medical components. I've heard its also widely used in electronics due to its conductive properties. Gold teeth, hell you can use one of those lovely bars as a door stop.
Bitcoin, eh, you can sell it to some other idiot is all I can think of
 
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