Biased Media!

Punishment

"Community service"-type responses to crime is very appealing as it involves undoing the damage both to persons and property and can be seen to be done which is satisfying to the victims. Surprising this form of sentence is not handed down by the courts more frequently. Does anyone know why?
 
"Higher punishment reduces crime"

BeigeBackstad - Though at face value the correlation you suggest here looks valid your post raises many questions and requires definition.

The United Arab Emirates is one culture in which your assertion might appear to be realised but on further analysis this beautiful, exotic and wealthy territory is at core a tribal society where ancient Laws of Hospitality and exogamy smooth relations which the visible more contemporary legal system marks but does not make. The law-abiding-ness of the UAE comes directly from this strength of kinship connections and ritual relational obligations to members of other "tribes".......an ancient complex system ensuring peaceful relations which as we know from world events is under severe stress at the moment.

Perhaps the idea that UAE - or anywhere else - has low crime because of the severe punishments meted out needs interrogation and connection with other aspects of the culture, as suggested earlier.

In the change from "face-to-face" relationships, spit-and-shake-hands deals and with increased pressure to get on/rich/get a house/car/street-cred what incentive is there for good relations and upholding the law if "the culture" is engaged in a no-holds-barred materialist scramble in which criminal behaviour is simply the heavy end of the spectrum? I'm not suggesting there was no crime before Ireland blossomed into its present higher global connectedness and greater wealth, but it seems to have been contained differently, locally.
 
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Higher punishment reduces crime.


Any examples of where this has actually happened?
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Parking offenses. There is a model for price of parking Vs parking fine. When the price of car parking gets too expensive, compared to the fine (or punishment) more people will take the risk (increased crime). The punishment has to be set a level that corresponds to the parking fee.

The correlation between crime and punishment seems to be stronger for lesser crimes.

Would you like more examples? - or are you convinced?
 
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I'd also like to add that there seems to be an even higher correlation between risk of being caught and crime rates.

There are a bunch of figures at the bottom of this study that might be of interest:
[broken link removed]

The correlation between average time served and motor vehicle theft (In England, between '81 & '95) was -.974
This is significant at the 0.01 level of significance, in other words, highly significant. (A value closer to 1 indicates greater correlation. 1 being perfect correlation, 0 having no correlation and -1 having perfect negative correlation)
 
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The law-abiding-ness of the UAE comes directly from this strength of kinship connections and ritual relational obligations to members of other "tribes".......an ancient complex system ensuring peaceful relations which as we know from world events is under severe stress at the moment.
Click to expand...

There would be considerable stigma associated with breaking laws. This too is a punishment.
 
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Would you like more examples? - or are you convinced?
Click to expand...
I'd like to see some independently gathered and analysed data - like that provided by Flabby below.

The correlation between average time served and motor vehicle theft (In England, between '81 & '95) was -.974
This is significant at the 0.01 level of significance, in other words, highly significant. (A value closer to 1 indicates greater correlation. 1 being perfect correlation, 0 having no correlation and -1 having perfect negative correlation
Click to expand...
Am I missing something here? This is a negative figure (-.974, or an almost perfect negative correlation. Doesn't this mean that longer sentances are not effective?
 
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To clarify, as average time served increases, motor theft decreases. This is indeed a negative correlation.
 
Huh?

Am I being thick......isn't this statistic simply saying that if carthieves are in jail they are not in a position to steal vehicles.......
 
Re: Huh?

There would be considerable stigma associated with breaking laws. This too is a punishment
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Good point, the same also applies to people from (how can I put this?) areas where there is a high level of social responsibility.
If you have a job and a mortgage and your peer group does as well then a stretch in prison is more of a punishment than it is to a person from an area where your peer group sees nothing wrong with going to prison, you get state housing and your income is not dependent on your labour, rather it is dependent on the labour.
This is a bit of a generalisation and I am slow to make generalisations but I am doing so to make a point.
 
peer pressure

Perhaps this is the crux of the matter purple! Cultural "norms" and the values of the broader social group are immensely powerful. Teenagers' fads and fashion-changes are a case in point demonstrating how strong the need to conform with age-set is, and this phase of development is formally ritualised and marked in pre-capitalist societies.

purple's clarification of this is very welcome as I was trying to express something of the kind in a couple of earlier posts but less elegantly than purple.

Might the rise in crime and low-level aggression and harassment be connected with a general increase in cynicism and rejection of "rule of law" by the broader social group?.....in which case rule of law will only re-establish when these values are again asserted by the broader social group!

Thinking about the arguments on both sides here, perhaps there is a fundamental split between those who think a lawbreaker is a "bad person" who must be punished individually for choices and actions made autonomously.....and those who think in terms of the individual and her/his social context as being mutually constituting and who would question the idea of autonomous individualism. Just a thought......
 
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Am I being thick......isn't this statistic simply saying that if carthieves are in jail they are not in a position to steal vehicles.......
Click to expand...

Well that's only one of the things it's saying. You have to read between the lines to get a clearer view.
 
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perhaps there is a fundamental split between those who think a lawbreaker...<snip>
Click to expand...

Maybe it's not as black and white as that. Even the most indoctrinated people still have free will. Can we not have a bit of both camps?
 
Crime and Punishment

Higher punishment reduces crime.
Any examples of where this has actually happened?
Click to expand...

Iraq under Saddam!!

The Irish are basically a lawless lot at heart. It ts in the blood after 800 years of legal persecution by the state.

We have something in common with Iraq then!
 
Re: Crime and Punishment

ElCid, you could paraphrase Churchill, referring to Germany he said; "the Hun is either under your boot or at your throat".
In the context of the middle east and Islam in general would you agree with this sentiment?
Personally I think Churchill was a bit of a racist...
 
Crime and Punishment

Churchill was a right old racist, and a bare faced liar to boot. The 'most admired Briton of the 20th century' according to recent polls...that says it all!

And I think Germans are pretty good neighbours these days.
 
Crime and Punishment

The quote about "the Hun at your throat or underheel" is interesting as Churchill was characteristically an acknowledged war-monger kept "underhell" in the early part of his career by people more sensible than he. He was well-fitted to his historic moment.
 
Re: Crime and Punishment

There is no doubt that the law is there to hound law abiding citizens and let serious offenders do what they like. Look now at this new initiative to shut nightclubs at 1.30. This is a farce, and it has shown me (along with other experiences I have had in the recent past) that the law doesn't give a damn about me and for the first time I can remember I know look upon the law and it's enforces with disgust.
While Ireland has changed it has not grown up, and I am for the first time in years thinking of leaving it indefinitely as I do not count a country free and democratic that does not treat it's adults as responsible citizens.
 
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