Biased Media!

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This discussion is getting dangerously close to coming to the conclusion that some people shouldn't be allowed have children. Why ? Because we don't like the way they get money from the state

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There are two choices here:
1. If the Government is going to force me to pay all their taxes, then scroungers and Goverment artists shouldn't be allowed kids.

2. Allow people do what they like, and not have to pay taxes.

Simple.

I find it disgusting that I have to pay for other people to enjoy their drugs etc.

Future Generations

Is it not a foregone conclusion that some people are not fit to have children?

Its ironic in this day and age that you need a licence for a dog, whereby any scumbag can have kids and expect the taxpayer to cough up (there is one unmarried mother in the state with 11 children)

If thats not taking the p**S then what is?

Re: Future Generations

I think the criminals we see on the newspapers say it best. Two fingers to our system of justice. It is a joke. It is demoralising, to both the ordinary members of society and to those members that attempt to enforce it.

We have a law that dictates that 3 road offences can have you banned from driving for a year. For many this could meaning having to move house or change job. This is how we punish someone who has been caught speeding a few times and has been caught careless driving (Can anyone tell me what this means?) Now do not think for a minute that I am advocating speeding or careless driving.
How many times have we read in the paper about a person who has 20 or 30 plus convictions and has now killed someone/raped someone/put someone in a wheelchair ....? How many chances do we give these people? These are CONVICTIONS we are talking about! If they have been caught x times, surely they have gotten away with crimes x * 10 times, or maybe more! Are there stats on this?

So, someones life can be ruined for 3 driving offences, but you can mug, assault, rob, beat - and get CAUGHT for it, and you are still on the street! How did this happen? What is the purpose of our laws? I would have thought that our laws are there so that decent law abiding members of society can enjoy their freedom in peace and without fear. Or am I missing something? So a smoking ban is introduced and you can be fined for smoking in a bar or restaurant. A nice law, but surely we got our priorities in a twist here? I mean, a guy on the street with 20 convictions versus a guy with a cigarette?

Fact is, the law only keeps the law abiding in check. It does nothing for those that aren't law abiding. They don't respect the law. Why should they? They laugh at the law! They can do anything they like and they are back on the street the next day. Two fingers to you and your law! It's pathetic.

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What is the purpose of our laws?

Most of the laws are based on the Government making money. The rest are to keep the Government in power.

Re: .

good questions/post shnaek.
The way I see it is that the laws are there to enforce the social contract that keeps society in one piece. If you go back to the 1600's there were no police forces and unless you were caught in the act it was very unlikely that you would ever be punished for a crime. Therefore penalties for crimes were very severe, i.e. hanging people for minor theft, in order to act as a deterrent.
The present system works on the basis that you will most likely be caught if you commit a crime and your will be punished for it. So the deterrent is the high likelihood of being caught and punished, not the severity of that punishment.
Where the present system falls down is that while there is still a high level of detection (in historical terms) there is now a low likelihood of being punished.
A factor in the unwillingness of judges to sent young offenders to prison is that they will be sent into a brutal environment where they will be exposed to a culture of drug abuse and brutality and mentored by hardened criminals.
I don't have a problem with these little scumbags crying into their pillows every night but what walks out of the prison gates is usually worse than what walked in.
When my instinct tells me that these lowlifes should be locked up for years and that the system is too lenient on them I try to remind myself that the judges and police know more about this than I do.

Re

-When my instinct tells me that these lowlifes should be locked up for years and that the system is too lenient on them I try to remind myself that the judges and police know more about this than I do. -

I admire your trusting nature, Purple, but if you think that judges konw more than us or are up to speed on how crime affects ordinary peoples lives, than your sadly mistaken.
It's a lot easier to feel sorry for some scumbag from X area before you in the dock, when you live behind high walls yourself in Killiney/Dalkey - you'd hardly understand the pressures of mortgages/both spouses working/creches/commuting etc that ordinary people have to deal with as well as put up with said scumbag who is up for robbing your house/assaulting your teenage child/etc etc. Judges are so out of touch with reality of everyday life it's not even funny ....
i.e. recent case of a drug dealer with over 100k of drugs (cant remember which type) in his car boot who should have got the madatory sentnce of 10 years. But the judge said there's no way the dealer could have know the value of the drugs was over the limit of 10k which results in this madatory sentence, therefore he got a suspended sentence......

Thugs

The 'Social Contract' that purple refers to is existant only within the generally law abiding citizenry of any nation. The vast majority of this law abiding citizenry are usually only faced with minor disciplinary measures for occasional (even unintentional) misdeameanours.

The punishment for such misdeameanours is therefore often set at quite a low level (fines etc).

These are off course no deterrent for the lawless minority who choose to live outside the norms of society and spit on the rest of us.

They need to be dealt with in a more targetted manner.
The multiple offenders are the obvious case to start with.

By the way, I don't subscribe to the belief that the thugs are all that way because of poverty. I'm currently visiting Malaysia, a country with no real Social Welfare system to speak off and quite an obvious struggle for existence at the lower end of the ladder.

If you don't work you starve...unless you have friends or family willing to dig you out. Therein lies the rub.

The social fabric of this society is light years ahead of Ireland. All I meet here are friendly helpful and polite poeple. There is little crime evident...not even the basic graffiti or petty vandalism you see everywhere at home.
It is quite a materialistic society, but there also seems to be a lot more humanity and respect for their fellow man.

Re: Thugs

If you don't work you starve...unless you have friends or family willing to dig you out

Do you believe this would be a better system to adopt?

The social fabric of this society is light years ahead of Ireland. All I meet here are friendly helpful and polite poeple. There is little crime evident...not even the basic graffiti or petty vandalism you see everywhere at home

Only been to Malaysia once - short trip. Perhaps their attitude towards life is helped by their tolerance of all things, including religious diversity...something we in Ireland could learn a lot from.

Re: Thugs

I hope that someone in the Dail is frequenting this thread as judging by the comments we have a serious issue here that needs to be tackled! Obviously we'll here all about it at election time when we'll hear the same unfulfilled promises! I hope a lot of people change from voting in the same muppets as last time(and the time before that and the time before that) which could give the Parties a scare and make them actually do something about the problem!
Apparently the mad Mullah is going to try get 2000 more Garda on the streets! What good will this do if 90% of them are afraid of their jobs!

Thugs

If you don't work you starve...unless you have friends or family willing to dig you out

Do you believe this would be a better system to adopt?

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I think a system where you are not automatically entitled to endless bailouts would definitely be an improvement. There is plenty of work in this country for those fit and able for it. Those who choose to sponge on the rest must face some limits on their behaviour. I don't advocate throwing them on the streets in the cold to starve, but perhaps a little more 'incentive to work' is needed. In the US system you are not free to continually turn down employment and still receive handouts. You get a few months help, along with a number of job offers. If you refuse the work your entitlements are slashed. I like that idea.

And quit trying to drag reliogion into every discussion. It is irrelevant here.

Re: Thugs

I think a system where you are not automatically entitled to endless bailouts would definitely be an improvement. There is plenty of work in this country for those fit and able for it. Those who choose to sponge on the rest must face some limits on their behaviour

That's a fair point.

And quit trying to drag reliogion into every discussion. It is irrelevant here.

I'm sorry EasyRules, but you brought it up. You mentioned how wonderful Malaysia is. To understand why Malaysians are the way they are you first need to understand their culture...which is heavily dominated by it's religious culture.

[broken link removed]
"Religion is very important to the people of Malaysia. In fact it is a major part of their lifestyle. This is evidenced by the large number of mosques, temples, and churches throughout Malaysia.

Indeed, Malaysia stands out as shining examples of tolerance and harmony in a world torn by ethnic and religious strife...

...To fully appreciate the culture of Malaysia, one must have a basic understanding of the primary religions practised by the people of Malaysia."

Thugs

I'm sorry EasyRules, but you brought it up. You mentioned how wonderful Malaysia is.

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What crap.
Religious tolerance in a society has bugger all to do with crime statistics.
I'd love you to explain that connection.

Or are you suggesting it is because they are a mainly Muslim culture you find them more law abiding?
Do you suggest we all convert to Islam?
Great solution! You first.

Drop the religion mania piggy, its tired out.

Re: Thugs

The social fabric of this society is light years ahead of Ireland. All I meet here are friendly helpful and polite poeple. There is little crime evident...not even the basic graffiti or petty vandalism you see everywhere at home.
It is quite a materialistic society, but there also seems to be a lot more humanity and respect for their fellow man.

I'd suggest that all of the above is heavily governed by Malaysias culture...wouldn't you? Hence the link to the quote on understanding Malaysian culture...understanding it's religious background etc...

Do you suggest we all convert to Islam?
Great solution! You first.

Thanks but no thanks. I prefer to not have any religious ties.
Malaysia also has other religions - namely Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism.
I'm not for a moment suggesting that we all convert to Islam. You're creating that ideal out of your own opinion of me I'd suggest. I merely made an observation about what I know of Malaysia. If you want to talk about it's culture then you should acknowledge the importance religion plays on it and perhaps their views on a great deal of subjects - namely crime and respect for fellow man etc...
Just because I choose not to follow any given religion, doesn't mean I can't understand how some cultures integrate their deeply held religious beliefs into their everyday lives.

Thugs

I don't understand.

You say you wish to have no religious ties but regard religion as a great solution (as demonstrated in Malaysia)?

I agree we have lost any semblance of religious mores in this country, and I even agree it may be a bad thing...but beyond that, whats your point?

Re: Thugs

You say you wish to have no religious ties but regard religion as a great solution (as demonstrated in Malaysia)?

I never said religion was a great solution.

I said that it's obvious from reading about Malaysia that it heavily influenced their culture, respect for everyone etc...

Thugs

So your point is simply that Malaysian society is comparatively crime free because of religion, but it doesn't mean it'll work here in Ireland.

Still can't see the point of bringing religion into a discussion on Irish crime rates....

Re: Thugs

Still can't see the point of bringing religion into a discussion on Irish crime rates....

Easyrules...I don't want to get involved in a tit-for-tat. That's not my intention here.
You actually brought up Malaysia in the first place? What has Malaysia got to do with Irish crime rates?

Hold on...before you answer. I don't see any problem myself with mentioning another country (as you did) in relation to crime and culture. I merely made an observation that their crime and overall culture is probably heavily tied to their views on religious life. That's all!!! Can we stop talking about this now as we're likely boring the pants off other people and this is a good thread which should probably be let get back to point?

society, justice, law

The original poster's question was around the issue of what's happening "in the culture/in the vernacular" (Ireland) when serious crimes are treated leniently by the justice system whilst minor transgressions (such as breaking speed limit, smoking in non-smoking areas) appear to be "hounded" and carry serious sentences.

We had reached a point in the discussion where the question seems to be:- if the consensual law-abiding majority is being undermined by this apparent miscarriage of justice and becoming less tolerant whilst the deviant minority is growing and no effective method of rehabilitation appears possible, how can "the culture" resist a downward spiral into lawlessness as "crime pays"? This is not an issue for Ireland only but preoccupies educators, statesmen and judiciaries throughout the so-called "developed world" but there is some indication in these postings that cities in the RoI appear to be exceptionally prone to gratuitous low-level abuse, aggression and harassment.

How to move forward?

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A more direct factor for high crime is punishment. Crime and punishment is cyclical. It goes like this:

High crime results in greater punishments.

Higher punishment reduces crime.

People (probably socialists and civil servants) object to the higher punishments, so they are made more lax.

Crime increases.

Back to the beginning.

Punishment

In order to deter criminals from reoffending - depending on type / seriousness of crime committed, get them to:

- remove graffiti on walls, motorway bridges, etc.
- carry out repairs/redecoration/renovations on schools, hospitals, nursing homes, sheltered housing, libraries
- excavate and repair roads/paths/etc
- collect litter
- plant flowers/trees to replace those damaged
- repair damaged/vandalised public property (benches, canals, parks, bus shelters, etc.)
- take people with disabilities out on trips / cook meals for them, etc.
- listen to victims of crime (esp. elderly) as to how much they were affected, and be forced to retribute

That's just a few examples off the top of my head. No point of sending them off to the clapper only to learn more of the tricks from hardliners or of slapping puny fines on them.

Raz (desperate taxpayer)