Biased Media!

Re: Yobbo's

Delboy & Redbhoy...hold on there now. Before you start using me as your opposition...be aware of what it is I'm saying. I'm opposed to vigilantism. I'm opposed to maltreatment of prisoners. I'm also aware that our tactics on fighting crime don't always work.


I don't see criminals (or civil liberties snobs)worrying too much about the rights of the people they commit their crimes on.

Yes. That's true. But it doesn't mean we treat them the same way. There is the notion of civilised society. Or maybe we could just cut thieves hands off...sure that'd stop them from robbing you in the future. Where do you stop?...or do you try to abide by basic human laws as most decent nations do?

BTW, there's nothing snobbish about civil liberties. There is something worrying about ignoring them though.

Is the selling of drugs to kids or breaking into peoples homes (which they've paid throught the nose for) or mugging old ladies or stealing cars (putting premiums through the roof) not morally repugnant too

Yes...of course it is. Did you think I was saying it wasn't?

...

Of course the sort of behaviour mentioned above is morally repugnant - I don't think any reasonable person would question that. However, vigilantism isn't exactly acceptable either - a civilised society does not involve individuals taking the law into their own hands. True, vigilantism might not be as bad as the actual offenders but it is not the solution. We need to improve the way the law is enforced. One area to focus on is young offenders. Too often we hear in the media of repeat young offenders not being detained as there is no place to house them.

The key is to deal with young offenders before they become serial offenders: too many keep getting away with light or no punishment and so do not really have a deterrent to change their ways and they go on to become hardened criminals. We need more space to detain young offenders, not for huge lengths of time, but enough to act as a real deterrent.

There is also a social element to this - there should be a focus on the cause of the problem which is generally a dysfunctional family. In some cases assistance from a social welfare officer might help the parents to get control of the child, but in other cases it may be down to irresponsible parenting and so maybe the parents should be held accountable, though this would be a nightmare to enforce.

Re: ...

I dont think Vigilantism is the answer either! Our jails are universities of crime instead of being the rehabilitation centres that they should be! The government give out about the cost of keeping criminals behind bars but never think about investing in their rehabilitation which would probably help society in the long run!
Maybe bringing victims of crime in to give talks about the effect of crime! I seen it once in a film where Jews who suffered during the Holocaust gave accounts of their hardships to neo-nazi's. I dont think criminals give a thought to how much suffering they cause! i.e. my mothers friend was in a post office during a hold up and needed counselling for years. She was afraid to come out of her house for months afterwards.
Maybe if they seen the bigger picture they'd have a different view on committing crime?

Re....

--There is also a social element to this - there should be a focus on the cause of the problem which is generally a dysfunctional family. In some cases assistance from a social welfare officer might help the parents to get control of the child, but in other cases it may be down to irresponsible parenting and so maybe the parents should be held accountable, though this would be a nightmare to enforce--

Very laudible, OhPinchy, but this is the sort of guff that has been influencing policy on how to deal with criminals in this country for the last 30 years. The parents in question often don't give a hoot..too busy down the pub spenidng the childrens allowance on fags and booze. (this brings me back to the childcare topic and my assertion that child benefits are too generous in cash terms and should be include a large element of tax breaks - at least lets not encourage teenagers to have children for the money it'll get them + make every father accountable for maintenance by deducting X amount from his wages/dole each week). Ireland has 1 of the highest rates of teen pregnancy and single mothers in Europe.
The criminals in question don't give a hoot either. No one is stupid, everyone knows right from wrong. There's employment in this country for anyone who wants it at every level. Criminals make a concious choice to go down their chosen route and no amount of social workers sitting & listening to them for hours on end will change that.
It's all about social responsibility.... and if you don't want to contribute to this country, then you should be locked (hard time) up as soon as you do wrong, again and again until the message gets through or until you reach old age.......

Re: Re....

Hi Delboy - You're missing the point. It is just too easy to blame the parents. You need to look deeper at the root cause. Why are they bad parents?

PS Are you happy to see your income tax rates increased by a few percentage points to pay for all those prison places?

Prison Places

An overhaul of how prisons are run + cost savings from newer and more efficient prisons would pay for a lot of prisons in itself. Less sumbags on the street wasting police/courts/insurance com's/welfare services time would also contribute handsomely to the construction of new prisons.

The reasons the parents are bad is that they don't care (not in all cases, but in the majority). They should'nt have had kids in the 1st place, but seeing as it pays so well, a lot of unprepared and inadequate people go ahead and do so. And the more we incentivise having kids, the worse it will get i.e. a single man can whistle dixie for 10 years plus, waiting for a social authority house in the country - a 17 year old with 2 or 3 kids jumps straight to the top of the list.

On another part of this board, we have a contributor who's at his/hers wits end with EHB funded neighbours. The whole estate is having a meeting tonight on what to do according to this poster. Replies to the original post indicate other peoples problems in this area with bad neighbours/out of control kids and the impact they have on ordinary,decent,mortgage paying, hard working people.

Why do we tolerate this crap when we are in a huge majority? Time to get tough

Re: Prison Places

The reasons the parents are bad is that they don't care

Click to expand...

Let's keep going - why do you think they don't care? By comparison say to the average middle-class parent of the same age. There is no genetic difference obviously - so why don't the 'bad' parents care?

Prison or what?

I agree with several points from posters before me.And I am glad that there is no "hang them " mob telling us what to do.
There is certainly a lack of funding in youth education here in Ireland-in other countries as well.When someone asks why the parents don't care and we look around we all find the answer, it's incompetence to educate or a general incompetence to make up the mind what really is important.People are pushed by all institutions of our society to make money respectively their duty to present a certain type of personality without the chance to have it.I know mothers educating their children on their own who are neither able to withstand the exploiting demands of their employers nor are they able to look after their children for more than an hour a day.
This is not due to the poverty they might end up in if not complying.It is due to the low self esteem that the general public has-if we are not part of the pack we get bitten.

the community, the law and good relations

Indecision about returning to live in Dublin after many years in the UK was resolved for me by a small incident a few months ago. A 4 or 5-year-old boy sitting behind me on a Dublin bus "going into town" proceeded to kick and push my back by inserting his feet in the gap between seat and seatback. After enduring this for about 5 minutes I turned round and looked down at the kicking legs and gave the child what I hoped was a disapproving look. He stared back at me with defiance and hostility, protruded his tongue and continued to kick and push. His mother sitting beside him clocked the situation, turned to the child and shouted fiercely "YOU DO ANYTHING YOU LIKE, SON! DON'T YOU LET ANYONE STOP YOU DOING ANYTHING YOU WANT TO, SON! IF THAT F***ING C**T LOOKS AT YOU AGAIN I'LL BREAK HER F***ING NECK". This rant, accompanied by the woman periodically digging me between the shoulder-blades with her finger, went on for a good part of the remainder of the journey and I got off the bus shaking with anger and fright as there was every sign this woman would do exactly as she said. What was even more shocking was her clear transmission of this narcissistic antisocial attitude to the youngster.

I got off the bus with my mind made up NOT to resettle in Dublin as I am not prepared to live in a situation where I have to put up with unprovoked abusive behaviour. The incident cleared up my indecision and I subsequently turned down an appointment I had been on the point of accepting (funded by EU social development money) to work therapeutically with children with disturbed behaviour and poor language skills in inner Dublin.

Repeated advice by friends and family that the situation was now impossible as far as public law and order in Dublin and the other major cities was concerned had not up to that incident dented my confidence that I could employ my not-inconsiderable rehabilitative skills and 20 years experience to ease the undeniable burden of people whose experiences and lives are deprived and distorted by social inequality and lack of opportunity and I wanted to do the work.

However - and this is important - experience teaches there are levels of damage to the social fabric that are impossible to heal. This is apparent when dialogue - however rudimentary - is not possible, and that dialogue stops after decades of acceptance of public and individual lawlessnessness, turning a blind eye, and taking the attitude it's someone else's business to sort out the problems.

That day in the bus my clear impression was that dialogue was not possible and I could not commit to the remedial work - nor was I prepared to live in Dublin in conditions where I did not feel free to express my opinions freely and protect myself from abusive behaviour, and where I felt no-one around me would take a position and step in if I WAS having my neck broken by a disaffected mother of a disaffected 5-year-old in the middle of a disaffected city where communication has badly broken down.

Good v Evil

Marie,
Hard to find appropriate words to express my feelings when I read your comments and the decision not to 'make a small difference' as part of 'saving the world'. It would be a terrible loss for Irish society if altruistic offers are not taken up/offered/taken back. Still, I had gone down that road some years ago, and had received nothing but abuse, ungratefulness, negative attitudes, 'me-first', etc. that I had decided to discontinue offering my paid/voluntary services to a particular facet of Irish society.
There's a phrase which I couldn't recall in full - 'if good men do nothing, then evil will prevail." So apt, and God help Ireland...
Raz

Good v Evil

Raz - It was a very difficult decision which I feel disappointed about but as you know from your own experience in that work, as individuals we have to observe the realities and have to feel safe before we can properly attend to others. The bus incident was for me a taste of the shame, anger, anxiety and fear a "lawless society" generates in individual experience and acknowledgement that I could not manage those feelings on a daily basis, year-in-year-out for very little material recompense.

That the unfortunate woman was beaten down by circumstances, angry at the world and "getting back" at it through her collusion with her child's unsocialised behaviour gives some understanding and forgiveness but if there is not a strong commitment at the SOCIAL AND COMMUNAL level for good relations, dialogue and rule-of-law then remedial work (whether in schools, prisons or in the community) with a relatively small number of individuals is ineffective as it is a malaise of the social group. Ultimately the problem doesn't lie with the kids who would come for therapy but the whole environment. There is a view that the environment is by now committed to a culture of selfishness, me-ness and law-lessness and attempted remedial work would create conflict for the kids rather than assist them towards some resolution. The environment is crucial.

The implication of an earlier post that "good districts" are immune from the forces operating in inner Dublin estates is unlikely and the crisis in Irish cities arising from rapid cultural change affects and is contributed to by everyone the "king in his counting house/counting out his money" as well as the "maid in the parlour/hanging out the clothes". If anyone has any suggestions on a starting-point to roll back the damage I'd be glad to hear them.

More Good v Evil

After I'd pushed the send-button I felt I wanted to add that "bad things" happen elsewhere too, like the murder of the Liverpudlian toddler Jamie Bolger by two children (Thompson and Venables) in 1993. I've just read in the newspaper of a teenager who has been handed a life-sentence (for which he will probably serve all of 4 years!!) after being found guilty of stabbing two joggers in Finsbury Park in London. He came out of court cocky and grinning.

Ireland is good in bad times and perhaps those testing times are here again. My personal experience in the past few years has been that there is not a sufficient "critical mass" of public consensus to float the boat of the "good (wo)men" who have to bide their time!

Re: More Good v Evil

Anyone ever see that low budget Sean Connery film - ZARDOZ? It is a sci-fi film about a society divided in 2. One section - the wealthy intellectual side - live behind a shield in their perfect world, all law abiding, living forever due to medical research etc. while outside the shield the working class, lawless and low intellects live.
I often wonder is that the future we have in store for ourselves, as increasing lawlessness makes people afraid to go out on the streets and the rich live in gated suburbs?
There has to be a balance between compassion and force of law. All should be given a chance. But if the line is crossed and ones freedom to enjoy life is being eroded by another, that other should feel the force of societies strength in its belief in freedom.

Vigilantes

In 1995 I bought a house in a very small ex-council estate of 70 houses. Very quiet, settled neighbourhood and my first house. However, my house was a corner house and adjacant to what used to be the playground. Anyway, no small kids left so what used the playground were teenagers, you all know the types, the baseball cap brigade drinking cans congregating at the side of the house.

Shouting, cursing, throwing cans and rubbish into my garden. If you tackled them, you got dogs abuse(girl living on her own) Only one lad was from the estate itself, the rest were his friends coming "visiting". Got no joy with the parents, "not my Billy, dont know where the other lads live". Went on for about nine months. It got to the stage where I hated going home, got totally depressed, time off work, etc. Last straw was a fire lit up against the outside wall which nearly destroyed my shed.

Woke up one day, enough is enough. Its them or me. Had to make too much sacrifices in my life to take this S**t. I didnt grow up in a leafy suburb, not anywhere too rough, but a place where half of the people decided it was easier to bleed the system than to work, and the other half got their education, built their careers and probably moved on to the leafy suburbs.

Anyway the long and the short of it, had to get some of my "northern" friends to pay them a visit. One night when they were all having a nice little beerfest with a nice little bonfire, up show the lads with their bats and balaclavas and tell them in no uncertain terms what would happen if they were seen in that area again. Never seen or heard from any of them again.

Felt bad initially about resorting to bully boy or in my case girl tactics, but felt great about being free to live in the house I was paying for again.

Would have no hesitation in doing it again. That may seem harsh to some of you and I can understand why, but each person does what they have to do to survive.

Vigilantes

Hi 69D! It sounds as if you had a very difficult time with the "gang" and it affected your health and wellbeing to such an extent you wanted it stopped, and got help from what you describe as your "northern friends" to stop it.

I wondered what you thought of the points made earlier that fighting fire with fire (excuse the pun!) brings the retaliator down to the level of the offender and also potentially leads to a situation where everyone attacks everyone else for anything they don't like/approve of - such as the kind of curtains on your windows, or the job you do etc., etc.

It's interesting, isn't it, that we can all quite easily "return the fire". I could have screamed back at the woman in the bus, poked her with my finger and threatened her likewise, except that would not have really changed anything for the better but for the worse, as I would then have joined in being a problem for the of the busload of passengers.

Perhaps with all our sophistication and new wealth and opportunities we still haven't solved the question of bringing people out of their alienation, anger and violence.......and that's (to my mind, anyhow!) the important task for Ireland's troubled cities at the present time.

Re: Vigilantes

Would have no hesitation in doing it again. That may seem harsh to some of you and I can understand why, but each person does what they have to do to survive.

Click to expand...

Ignoring the moral/ethical issues for a moment, I have to question the effectiveness of this. While it may have succeeded in this case, it is quite likely to result in a 'war' which is impossible to fight. If you get a 'gang' with a grudge against an individual/family/house, they can do huge damage over time, with small, petty individual attacks.

Re: Vigilantes

I get what you are saying rainyday but for anyone in this situation the broader socio-philosophical issues would not come into it. If a fire was burning over my garden wall I would not spend much time reflecting on the moral vacuum that existed in the early childhood of those who let it.
I would be more interested in putting it out.

Marie, I would love to say that your experience was unusual, but I am afraid to say it is not. I was taking a right turn (in the car) into the road I live on on Saturday around 7pm and a group of three girls of about 13-14 years old walked right out in front of me. This forced me to slam on with the back of the car sticking out into oncoming traffic. I blew the horn but they continued to stroll across in front of me and started to shout abuse and propose, through sign language, that I go and f*** myself.
In order to avoid a collision I drove forward and nudged two of them out of the way, one of whom got a very satisfying bang of my wing mirror.
This resulted in an increase in the level of verbal abuse from the girls, they were now questioning the marital status of my parents and must have been peeping through my bedroom window during private moments of my teenage years. I told them that they could take my reg and I would be happy to supply me name and number if their parents wanted to discuss the incident. I also told them that I would tell their parents what colourful vocabularies they had and that they should learn the green cross code.
I didn't use those exact words.

That was in a quiet leafy suburb of south Dublin.
The problem that Marie encountered is not confined to any socio-economic group.

Re: Vigilantes

Marie, Sorry to hear about your exploits with scum on the bus! Its a shame that you think that if the woman had tried to break your neck that the other passengers would sit idly by. To be honest that would probably be the case most of the time but not all. But shouldnt that hasten your decision to move back and try and change that type of behaviour with your EU funded position.
69D, theres only so much you can take with the little shits and their beerfests as you put it. Unfortunately these people are more put off by gangs tackling them than the Garda warning them over and over. The Garda are too soft on these little so and so's. Why should the Gardai care- after all its not their community.
Unfortunately this is the action that works and will continue to do so until the government gets its act together regarding policing ,education etc etc.

Thugs

'The Gardai are too soft...'
Mostly it seems the Gardai are too scared! Yes, they fear the thugs as much as the rest of us and choose to avoid a difficult confrontation. I have Garda friends and I know how it is.

Sadly, this leaves a policing deficit in many areas of Ireland.

In such cases the immediate enforcement of 'Rule of Law' is not possible.

In order to prevent total chaos, or the extremes of misbehaviour, something drastic has to be done. I don't agree with vigilantiism as a long term solution, but as a short term fix its often the best and only option.

When the thugs are dealt with (and there are usually only a few ringleaders who need to be made an example of) normal service can resume.

SF have better long term (social) solutions than FF or FG. They had their chance and couldn't be arsed.

Stop tying yourself up with hand wringing and rationalising.

By the way, I just returned from a trip to the US where I was fascinated to see the highways being cleaned and weeded by convicts! Great idea. Like to see it here too.

Re: Thugs

SF have better long term (social) solutions than FF or FG

Such as?