"Belfast" vs "Good Friday" agreement

[Duke of Marmalade]

Everything was meant to be tidied up with a formal amnesty for terrorists and security forces, agreed between Sinn Féin and the British government in 2004. A Bill reached the Commons the following year before the SDLP embarrassed both sides into abandoning it.

The hypocrisy of SF and its supporters in condemning such a blanket amnesty today is breath taking.

 

[Purple]

The hypocrisy of SF and its supporters in condemning such a blanket amnesty today is breath taking.

But that no longer suits SF so now it's wrong.
Being preached at about justice by the shinners is like being preached at about the evils of child abuse by the RC Church.

 

[WolfeTone]

@Duke of Marmalade of course the truth of the matter is somewhat more complicated

On the runs

I think this is a reasonable summary of the whole affair.
For the record, the secret nature of this affair was despicable. You will note that, along with SF, the British and Irish governments paw prints are all over this. The legal position was that those convicted pre 1998 were eligible for release under licence the GFA.
The legal position of those not yet convicted was less clear. SF wanted legal assurances that anyone (the otr's) would be eligible for release under GFA terms. This was part of the decommissioning negotiations. As well as that, any prospective prosecution could be a lengthy protracted affair as everyone has an entitled to plead not guilty. Tieing up cases, possibly for years, with net result of automatic prison release seems futile.
So a form of legal assurance was sought.

It became apparent to British government that there was a possibility that its officers could be caught up in prosecution legacy cases facing long-term prison sentences the murky proposal of amnesty was contrived. SF opposed such an amnesty. At least that is what is says here from BBC report

In 2006, an attempt to introduce legislation was shelved in the face of widespread opposition. Sinn Féin's rejection of it, because it would have also covered the Army and police and those guilty of collusion in crimes, made it unworkable.

So amnesty was off the table. SF opposed it. Yes, they would accept it for their own members, which is hypocritical, but not at the cost of letting British agents off the hook.
In the end, SF got the letters for their members while British agents remained on the hook. But not because of any open accountable political process, but because the British government operate a secretive, nefarious political administration in Ireland.

All this huffing and puffing and 'concern' about SF ever getting into power, all the while those in power are at every bit the same game as SF.

"Adulterers in churches and pornography in the schools
You got gangsters in power and lawbreakers making rules
When you gonna wake up! When you gonna wake up!"

- Bob Dylan, 1979.

 

[Purple]

but because the British government operate a secretive, nefarious political administration in Ireland.

I think you're about 10 posts from writing a ballad for the Wolfe Tone's.
The British army have an Army that sometimes operated in secret but they were ultimately accountable to the people.
Sinn Fein had a secret army which was never accountable to anyone.

 

[WolfeTone]

but they were ultimately accountable to the people.

You are actually writing that in a topic where the discussion is centred on an amnesty for British army officers and agents from being held accountable.

On the other hand, thousands of IRA members were held accountable by either execution or prison time.

 

[Purple]

You are actually writing that in a topic where the discussion is centred on an amnesty for British army officers and agents from being held accountable.

On the other hand, thousands of IRA members were held accountable by either execution or prison time.

The British didn't execute any PIRA members.
The British government is accountable to the British people. Are you suggesting that it is not?

 

[WolfeTone]

The British army have an Army that sometimes operated in secret but they were ultimately accountable to the people.

British Army officers are not being held accountable for their criminal actions, including the murder and attempted murder of innocent Irish civilians, in Ireland.
They are getting away with murder by virtue of their masters in the British government that collude with the continued cover up.

 

[WolfeTone]

The British didn't execute any PIRA members.

Absolutely they did. Gibraltar probably being the most obvious case.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

You are actually writing that in a topic where the discussion is centred on an amnesty for British army officers and agents from being held accountable.

On the other hand, thousands of IRA members were held accountable by either execution or prison time.

Wikipedia stats:
British security forces killed in Troubles 1,114
Republican paramilitaries killed 396
I think SF/IRA would disagree with you that British soldiers were not held accountable for their actions.

Consider those statistics. One of the most powerful military forces on planet Earth versus a band of urban guerrillas and they "lost" in headcount by 1,114 to 396. Two takeaways. The British forces were in fact extremely disciplined, compared to for example the French equivalent in Algeria as alluded to by Purple. Secondly, everybody on this island owes an immense debt of gratitude to the sacrifice of British lives that saved this country from a Bosnian style meltdown.
But heck Soldier F is getting off, Ireland should use its position on the UN Security Council to rectify this gross injustice.

 

[WolfeTone]

Consider those statistics.

Really? Your using statistics as a means to defend a Tory government policy (which is what you are doing) that all political parties across the spectrum, North and South have opposed?

But heck Soldier F is getting off

with murder, yes. Along with his colleagues. Along with agents used by British government to target innocent civilians.

 

[WolfeTone]

everybody on this island owes an immense debt of gratitude to the sacrifice of British lives that saved this country from a Bosnian style meltdown.

Except of course those, like Daniel Hegarty, Majella O'Hare, children who were gunned down by British State forces for no reason.
Please don't tell me you think the Hegartys and O'Hare's owe a debt of gratitude to British Army?

Personally speaking, Irish Defence Forces reputation of peace-keeping stands on par, if not higher, than British State forces.

 

[WolfeTone]

Britain destroyed records of colonial crimes

It would appear that what the British government is doing in Ireland is just standard practice.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Britain destroyed records of colonial crimes

It would appear that what the British government is doing in Ireland is just standard practice.

I’m not terribly interested in what the British did in the 19th century. Or for that matter the French, Germans, Spanish, Belgians, Dutch, Italians, Portuguese possibly even the Chinese and Japanese, I don’t care. But I can see you have a shelf full of British misdemeanours back to William the Conqueror.

 

[WolfeTone]

I’m not terribly interested in what the British did in the 19th century.

Neither am I. Im just intrigued by the similarities.
It reminds me of the similarities of Irish Republicans who planted bombs indiscriminately in 1880's and 1980's in killing innocent children.

If you did it in 1880's you still get to have train stations and bridges named after you, with official ceremonies and Presidental recognition.
I suppose its only right, because it was done in the name of 'our' freedom?

 

[Purple]

Neither am I. Im just intrigued by the similarities.
It reminds me of the similarities of Irish Republicans who planted bombs indiscriminately in 1880's and 1980's in killing innocent children.

If you did it in 1880's you still get to have train stations and bridges named after you, with official ceremonies and Presidental recognition.
I suppose its only right, because it was done in the name of 'our' freedom?

So is that the Irish State glorifying murder and protecting the reputation of murderers?
Should we take Tom Clarke's name off our Train Stations and Bridges and cancel the other "terrorists" from the bygone age before we look for a prosecution of Soldier F?

 

[WolfeTone]

So is that the Irish State glorifying murder and protecting the reputation of murderers?

Yes.

Should we take Tom Clarke's name off our Train Stations and Bridges and cancel the other "terrorists" from the bygone age before we look for a prosecution of Soldier F?

Of course. Why do we put up with this hypocrisy?

 

[Purple]

Yes.



Of course. Why do we put up with this hypocrisy?

I've no problem with that but I don't understand how you can hold that view and still support a political party run by unrepentant former terrorists which glorifies and commemorates recent acts of terror.

 

[WolfeTone]

I've no problem with that but I don't understand how you can hold that view and still support a political party run by unrepentant former terrorists which glorifies and commemorates recent acts of terror.

Whats to understand?
How can you (or anyone else) agree with that view and still support political parties that glorify Thomas Clarke and continue to commemorate his, and his associates, acts of terror?

 

[Purple]

Whats to understand?
How can you (or anyone else) agree with that view and still support political parties that glorify Thomas Clarke and continue to commemorate his, and his associates, acts of terror?

If the Tom Clarkes of this world were still alive and the immediate families of their victims were still alive then it would of course be different. Tom Clarke's actions are history. The PIRA's actions are politics.
Time turns history into politics and changes the perspective we have on events.
Nobody protsts when the Black Death is used as a comedy vehicle but I don't think we'll see a comedy about Auschwitz (though Primo Levi did recount some humorous stories in Moments of Reprieve).

 

[WolfeTone]

Time turns history into politics and changes the perspective we have on events.

So the moral outrage and indignation cast at PIRA may one day become a cause of commemoration and glorification?

This is just a pure cop-out...

If the Tom Clarkes of this world were still alive and the immediate families of their victims were still alive then it would of course be different.

...that what he did was outrageous and and an act of criminal terrorism, but, he is dead, his associates are dead, his victims are dead, his victims families are dead... so now we can show our true feelings for Thomas Clarke and glorify what he did.
Why not glorify the lives of his victims instead?

If this is not the most bare-faced hypocrisy then I do not know what is.