"Belfast" vs "Good Friday" agreement

WolfeTone said:
Erskine Childers and his son Erskine Robert (the second Protestant President of Ireland)
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Remember what happened to their Father?
WolfeTone said:
No doubt this is a factor. Although why the stat restricts itself to 15% of 'male' Protestants I'm not sure? Surely the same outcome for female Protestants marrying Catholic men?
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There was a considerable amount of misogyny back then, believe it of not. When a Protestant of either gender wanted to marry a Catholic their children had to be raised Catholic.
WolfeTone said:
But you are talking about a Catholic and Protestant history. What has that got to do with Irish language?
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It was one of the many factors which made this country an alien place for Protestants after Independence.
WolfeTone said:
The point being, Irish Protestant Nationalism is very much an integral part of Irelands struggle for independence from Westminster rule.

Partition drove a knife through that sentiment.
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Irish Nationalism had become much more entwine with a culturally Catholic identity over the preceding decades but yes, when Michael Collins and his party partitioned the Island, after the IRA made it an inevitability, a chasm opened up between Protestant and Catholic Irish people as "Protestant" became a byword for Northern Unionism.
 
Purple said:
It was one of the many factors which made this country an alien place for Protestants after Independence.
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Again, this is the myth. There are tens of thousands of Protestants in Ireland learning Irish today, as through the decades long before partition, either through education system or of their own volition.

The only people who are "alien" to Irish in this country are those who choose to ignore, disregard or through their own narrow minded political prejudice hold Irish language in contempt.

What next? The colour Green!
 
WolfeTone said:
Again, this is the myth. There are tens of thousands of Protestants in Ireland learning Irish today, as through the decades long before partition, either through education system or of their own volition.
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I am talking about the period around partition and the formation of this country.
WolfeTone said:
The only people who are "alien" to Irish in this country are those who choose to ignore, disregard or through their own narrow minded political prejudice hold Irish language in contempt.
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Or the dyslexic or the under educated or those who see Irishness in a modern inclusive way which embraces immigrants and people from other backgrounds and doesn't consider people who can't speak Irish and didn't have family in the GPO as less Irish than themselves.

Personally I find the whole Gaeilgeoir thing distasteful, regressive and narrowminded. I don't speak Irish because I'm dyslexic due to being somewhere on the autism spectrum. Does that make me less Irish than you? My black colleague of mixed Irish and Nigerian heritage doesn't speak it either. Is his Irishness in doubt? When the Shinners take over will we be sent to Chinese style re-education camps?
Is it right that I have to have an exemption, a diagnosis, to get a State job? What about him, do they have a colour chart at the interviews?

WolfeTone said:
What next? The colour Green!
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Whataboutism it?
 
Purple said:
I am talking about the period around partition and the formation of this country.
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Equally so. Tens of thousands of Protestants were learning Irish in schools long before the Free State got involved and made it compulsory. They were learning it because it is part of their culture, their heritage, their history. Many of their parents, or their grand-parents would also have learned Irish.
Arguably the Gaelic League would probably not have emerged and sustained without the foresight and input of Ireland's Protestants.

Purple said:
Or the dyslexic or the under educated
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True, did they leave the country because the Free State made Irish a compulsory subject in school?

Purple said:
those who see Irishness in a modern inclusive way which embraces immigrants and people from other backgrounds and doesn't consider people who can't speak Irish and didn't have family in the GPO as less Irish than themselves.
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None of which has anything to do with the Irish language itself, more to do with patronising ignorant fools.

Purple said:
Yep, Sinn Fein who made it inevitable and Collins who made it factual.
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Yep, and his portrait hangs high in Government office.
 
Purple said:
To be blunt there's absolutely no point in arguing this with Wolfie as his opinions on the subject are immutable.
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I don't disagree with a lot what you say. Bad policy, or good policy implemented badly, can have unintended consequences and in such instances the Irish nationalist movement toward independence would have been an uncomfortable place for many people who identified with the United Kingdom, a significant portion no doubt being Protestant.

My only point here is that the Irish language itself was not a significant motivator in anyway shape or form for Protestants, many of whom were already familiar with the Irish language, to upsticks and leave.
 
The Irish language being made compulsory and being made a requirement for State jobs was one of many small moves which made this a cold place for Protestants post independence. It certainly wasn't a major factor but equally it certainly was politically loaded and was the furthering of the vision Patrick Pearce had for the country.

(I always thought Pearce was a bit of a weirdo but considering the deep IRA links my family have I generally keep that to myself.)
 
WolfeTone said:
ens of thousands of Protestants were learning Irish in schools long before the Free State got involved and made it compulsory. They were learning it because it is part of their culture, their heritage, their history.
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But it wasn't, not for many of them. We're not talking about those who were comfortable with it, we are talking about those who weren't.
WolfeTone said:
True, did they leave the country because the Free State made Irish a compulsory subject in school?
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Do you really think I, or anyone else, is arguing that it's that binary?
WolfeTone said:
None of which has anything to do with the Irish language itself, more to do with patronising ignorant fools.
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There's no shortage of them and they are loud and bombastic and hard to ignore and they colour the perception of the language for me. Given that I'm a former Catholic with very strong nationalist credentials and I find the whole elevation of the Irish language exclusionary I can only imagine how it must have felt for Protestants in 1922.
WolfeTone said:
Yep, and his portrait hangs high in Government office.
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As does one of Dev. Two deeply flawed but great men. The difference was that one of them wasn't accidently shot by one of his own men.
 
Purple said:
State jobs was one of many small moves which made this a cold place for Protestants post independence. It certainly wasn't a major factor
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The inference being that Irish language was not something that Irish Protestants could not relate to or had no affinity to.
From Douglas de hÍde to Edward Carson to the tremendous work Linda Ervine is doing today in the heart of loyalist Belfast, this is pure myth.
 
Purple said:
Given that I'm a former Catholic with very strong nationalist credentials and I find the whole elevation of the Irish language exclusionary I can only imagine how it must have felt for Protestants in 1922.
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You are of course entitled to feel that way, but why would you assume that Protestants would feel excluded, on the basis of the elevation of the Irish language, in Ireland?

The coldhouse for Protestants was the dominance of Catholicism at the centre of government, and more so, the actions of the IRA .
Not Irish language.
 
WolfeTone said:
You are of course entitled to feel that way, but why would you assume that Protestants would feel excluded, on the basis of the elevation of the Irish language, in Ireland?
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From talking to them and their families about it.
 
It's of note that Douglas Hyde and Edward Carson were both born in what is now this country and were both Anglicans.
Ervine is Anglican or Methodist or something but is certainly not Presbyterian.
 
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WolfeTone said:
The coldhouse for Protestants was the dominance of Catholicism at the centre of government, and more so, the actions of the IRA .
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Mainly, but the imposition of the Irish language was part of it.
Do you think that most Unionists regard it as alien because they are contrarians?
 
Purple said:
Do you think that most Unionists regard it as alien because they are contrarians?
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There is association with the Irish language and Irish nationalism, but the Irish language itself is no more a factor in motivating Irish Protestants to move anymore than Irish Catholics.
British Protestants on the other hand may be more inclined to move but primarily because of other more pressing factors, sectarian disdain for Catholics and a repulsion of having to 'endure' living in a society broadly shaped and governed by them being one. Intimidation from IRA being another.
Irish language by itself is way down the list of factors.

The proof will be in the pudding for when an Irish language Act is passed in NI. How many Protestants will upsticks and leave because of that. I doubt if any at all.
 
WolfeTone said:
British Protestants on the other hand may be more inclined to move
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Many of the people here in 1922, Protestant and Catholic, regarded themselves as both British and Irish. That sense of dual identity was whitewashed out of our history. When you refer to "British Protestants" are you referring to those people from this country who had that dual identity?

Edwin Poots is as Irish as I am but his Irish identity is very different to mine. We will have a united Ireland when we can all acknowledge and respect that. While I acknowledge his Irishness I certainly don't respect his values and wouldn't like to see my country polluted by that bigotry.
WolfeTone said:
The proof will be in the pudding for when an Irish language Act is passed in NI. How many Protestants will upsticks and leave because of that.
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Really?
That's well below your usual standard.
 
The Nordies are out of Lockdown well in time for Marching Season.
Given the riots they've had over the last few months this should be an absolute cracker.
 
Purple said:
Many of the people here in 1922, Protestant and Catholic, regarded themselves as both British and Irish.
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I know, I never said otherwise.

Purple said:
When you refer to "British Protestants" are you referring to those people from this country who had that dual identity?
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I'm referring to those who identify first and foremost as British. When I refer to Irish Protestants (or Catholics), I am referring to those Protestants who do not identify as British at all.

Purple said:
Really?
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Yes, really. It is my contention that the Irish language by itself had next to zero impact on the reduction of the Protestant population of the 26. It was the more profound realities of no longer being part of the UK, the prominence of Catholicism in government and fear of intimidation from IRA that were the prominent factors for Protestants, as a minority, to move.

I would suggest, that when an Irish language Act is passed in NI that it will be evident that it will have no impact on the Protestant population, by virtue that they will remain as part of the UK, remain the majority and not in fear of the IRA.
 
The good and the bad of Irish.
Recently visited West Kerry and noted the locals speaking Irish. I don't like the gutteral sound myself but the Duke was well pleased. These folk deserve to access public services in the historic language of their own country, even if that is a disproportionate use of public funds. I doubt they see their language in any sectarian or political context.
The Duke was once attending an art gallery* in Linenhall Belfast and noticed a group of elderly women speaking in Irish. It transpired that they were a Presbyterian bible class. These people loved Irish for its cultural dimension, again not influenced by politics or sectarianism. The Duke was again well pleased.
But to listen to SF politicians addressing the NI Assembly or even the Dail in their ugly faux adoption of Irish makes the Duke want to Puke. And then they have the nerve to sneer and wag their finger at "curry me yoghurt" as being the epitome of sectarian bigotry.
The Duke also finds it distasteful when a priest delivers the GAA All Ireland victory speech in Irish (not sure whether that still happens).

* Not a culture vulture myself but there were family reasons.
 
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WolfeTone said:
I'm referring to those who identify first and foremost as British. When I refer to Irish Protestants (or Catholics), I am referring to those Protestants who do not identify as British at all.
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What about those who struggles to know the difference?
So you don't think that it was in any way an assertion of Gaelic Irishness that was tied up in Catholicism? Sure you can't even say hello of good bye in Irish without praying to a single mother and her young fella and the Prod's don't like single mothers in general and they particularly don't like the veneration of that on one.
 
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