"Belfast" vs "Good Friday" agreement

[WolfeTone]

But to listen to SF politicians addressing the NI Assembly or even the Dail in their ugly faux adoption of Irish makes the Duke want to Puke.

So the problem lies within yourself.

The idea that someone like Pearse Doherty, a native Irish speaker, is labelled as "ugly faux adoption" says all I need to know about the ignorance that prevails towards the Irish language.
And once again, the Irish language is being politicised not by SF but by those who have an inherent dislike of SF. Why else would SF be singled out from the Dáil when our Taoiseach Michéal Martin, a fluent Irish speaker, is not? Enda Kenny, another and there are many, many more both fluent, and appreciative Irish speakers in the Dáil across the political spectrum.
One such speaker being Joe McHugh (FG), of East Donegal. Mr McHugh was somewhat ridiculed by the media during his time as Minister of Gaeltacht because he admitted he knew little of Irish. He took it upon himself to study the language and by the end of his tenure, he was more than capable of holding his own in conversation.
Leo Vradakar, another prominent politician took it upon himself to take up Irish and has achieved reasonable success and qualification without proclaiming to be fluent.

So the politicisation of the Irish language is with those who are fundamentally opposed to the language, not with those who support the language which range across the political spectrum both north and south.

 

[WolfeTone]

Gaelic Irishness

Gaelic Irishness is not the preserve of Catholicism. Many, many Irish Protestants are proud of their Gaelic heritage as I have been pointing out with aforementioned prominent leaders of the Irish Gaelic revival in the 19th century who were Protestant.

 

[Purple]

Gaelic Irishness is not the preserve of Catholicism. Many, many Irish Protestants are proud of their Gaelic heritage as I have been pointing out with aforementioned prominent leaders of the Irish Gaelic revival in the 19th century who were Protestant.

I never said otherwise.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

So the problem lies within yourself.

Michael Martin speaking Irish doesn't upset me at all.
Grisly spouting it makes me puke, as aforementioned.

 

[WolfeTone]

Michael Martin speaking Irish doesn't upset me at all.
Grisly spouting it makes me puke, as aforementioned.

Yes, I gathered that. Micheál received an education in the Irish language which allows him to speak proficiently at it. Adams had no such opportunity in his own country and as such his linguistic pronounciations vocabourly deficiencies are clear.
But it is also clear that he has has a great affinity and attachment to the language. It is part of his identity. And as a political representative he is determined to afford the opportunity to others in their country, just as Micheál was afforded the opportunity in his country.


He is not alone, outside of SF, all political parties with the exception of some unionist parties, as with the Irish and British governments, as with the majority of Irish people north and south, are agreeable to an Irish language Act in NI.



Well done Edwin, your trip to Dublin is paying off.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

And once again, the Irish language is being politicised not by SF...

You compare Micháel Martin making a speech in Irish down here with the SF routine provocative display in the NI Assembly. The SDLP are every bit as pro Irish as SF/IRA but they do not rub it in unionist faces like they do.
If there ever is going to be a peaceful transition to a UI it will be because of the attitude of people of goodwill like MM and Colum Eastwood and despite its weaponisation by SF/IRA.

 

[WolfeTone]

routine provocative display

what is provocative about speaking Irish?
Again, it is a language, it is of the Protestant culture and heritage.
The only provocation it appears is when SF use it.
Why is it not so provocative when British and Irish governments, the broad political spectrum openly support an Irish language Act in NI?
We have an official languages Act here. Scotland has a language act, Wales has a language Act and some of its members of parliament openly speak Welsh (broken or fluent) on a regular basis without anyone being 'provoked'.
The EU has 20+ official languages, one of them Irish. Have the Protestants of Europe been provoked?

What is so provocative about using a language that is native to that country? Poor paranoid, blinkered, head in the sand Unionism. Ulster-Scots is ok to use, but not Gaelic. How paranoid, insecure and narrow-minded do you have to be to take offence to a language.

If there ever is going to be a peaceful transition to a UI it will be because of the attitude of people of goodwill like MM and Colum Eastwood and despite its weaponisation by SF/IRA.

What has a UI got to do with your offence at Irish being used in the Stormont assembly. Once again, it is yourself and like-minded that are politicising the language.

If Poots lives up to his word and an Irish language Act is passed, then that will be the end of it. Unionists will soon discover that the sky will not fall upon them and that they will remain as British as ever. As soon as it is passed, then the politicising of the Irish language through the refusal to honour agreements supported by broad political spectrum and the two governments will be over.

You compare Micháel Martin making a speech in Irish down

I compared Michéal Martin making a speech in Irish down with Pearse Doherty making a speech in Irish down here. One makes you puke at the 'faux' adoption, the other is perfectly fine with you. Albeit, it is Doherty that is the native speaker and not Martin.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

What is so provocative about using a language that is native to that country?

You don't really understand NI do you? It is a chronically divided society on which the extremes of SF and DUP thrive. Taking the hump at a language seems so alien to your broad mind.
But it gets worse.
There are folk who take the hump at Londonderry being called by its official name and there are those who like to rub their nose in it. I guess Prodies say Derry amongst themselves, even I do that, it is easier.
There are those who take the hump at the official flag being flown on public buildings and there are those who would overdo it in that sphere compared to the mainland.
And there are those who take the hump at the Irish language and those that rub their noses in it by the stunt of way overusing it in the NI Assembly. (SDLP do not)
If you think this theatre is entirely innocent and well intentioned then you are both nigh eve as well as ignorant of the truly rotten nature of Northern politics.

 

[WolfeTone]

@Duke of Marmalade I get all of that Duke, I guess I am just minded to think that to get over the humps that each side needs to facilitate the other side in their pursuit or in their expressions of identity.
In terms of the Irish language, unionism really needs to get over its hump.

 

[Purple]

Well done Edwin, your trip to Dublin is paying off.

Who says a dinosaur never changes its spots.

 

[Betsy Og]

I don't think there was anything objectionable about making Irish a compulsory school subject, but for access to State jobs, I'd agree that was overdoing it.

In a UI would we ditch compulsory Irish in schools? - probably - we'd be the lesser for it - but at some point do you get sick of trying to make the horse drink?, as I get older I'm getting less tolerant of people who make no effort but will, at the drop of a hat, whinge about how they were thought - yeah lads, that's why..... Maybe we'd be better off investing in Gael Scoileanna?, but then in NI we urgently need communities educated together, so no doubt Gael Scoileanna in NI would be counterproductive in that respect. Probably go with voluntary after school classes in NI.

The Jailtacht is more SF weaponising, no point speaking Irish where you know it won't be understood, that's just acting the maggot.

What's the future for Irish?, probably posh South Dublin accented Irish, and hopefully the gaeltachts hang on. I'm not sure we've enough collective pride to make more headway like the Welsh have, but long live TG4 & R na G at least.

 

[WolfeTone]

@Betsy Og I agree with some of that sentiment, not so much other parts.

On the education front there is no doubt that Irish has problems the way it is thought, particularly at second level. It is treated on par with English which is silly considering it is not the native tongue of most. I learnt some French in secondary school also, I don't recall having to study French literature?

That said, the compulsory imposition in school was part of a cultural revival. Whether it was necessary or not, hard to say, maybe it was a measure in form of a 'backstop' against its decline and in that regard understandable.

100yrs on perhaps it is time to reflect on progress? I didn't like Irish at school but just got on with it as much as I could. My own interest in it was prompted after I left school, amongst other things, discovering my grandmother grew up in all Irish speaking household in Kerry. This prompted my interest in adult life and no doubt my scattered eduction in school was a help. So what I detested in school, I am grateful for today.

My own sense that compulsory Irish is a good thing, perhaps up to Junior cert, as it instills a sense of identity and culture that may otherwise be lost.
After that I think it should be optional. My own instinct is that those who excel at Irish in LC tend to be those who will excel at languages anyway. For the rest, the literature part is self-defeating. For some English literature is painful during school years, why compound the misery with Irish literature that is an understandable as an alien language from Star Wars.

I would be of the mind that there is a sufficient underbelly of support for the language amongst the population. New innovative ideas to make it more accessible and adoptable in everyday life would be preferential to the traditional ciriculum that is a love/hate (mostly hate) affair.
Hector on TG4 was a revelation all those years ago. We got to see Irish being spoken in foreign countries whereas up till then it was only in Gaeltacht areas with whining old women and fishermen.
Duolingo, on of the top language apps reports that Irish has been downloaded 2.3m times in USA alone (I figure a tiny portion of that actually study Irish).
Irish does have a growing following in the international community of language enthusiasts. I read somewhere (cannot confirm) that there are more fluent Irish speakers outside of Ireland than there are native speakers in Ireland.
Finally, the language is often thought to be redundant by many. I can assure you however that anyone with a cursory interest in the language will find ample resource and opportunity to communicate in Irish once they dip their toe in the water.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Irish is like bitcoin. Nobody needs to use it but there is a cult* which likes to use a cupla focal and a cult* that likes to buy lattes with bitcoin.

* I exclude from this broad brush of course native Irish speakers and folk who live in the Lebanon and wherever @tecate hangs out and Ransomware professionals.

 

[WolfeTone]

Nobody needs to use it

Actually the benefits of learning a second language are well known memory, problem solving, critical thinking.
It doesn't stand that a second language needs to be Irish. French or Spanish would be useful too.
But nobody needs to use French or Spanish here, save for some tourist hospitality positions that serve up latte.

 

[odyssey06]

Half the attraction for Gaeilscoils is well known as having nothing to do with the language and to do with social sorting *

* There are less polite terms for it which could be more accurate.

 

[odyssey06]

Actually the benefits of learning a second language are well known memory, problem solving, critical thinking.
It doesn't stand that a second language needs to be Irish. French or Spanish would be useful too.
But nobody needs to use French or Spanish here, save for some tourist hospitality positions that serve up latte.

French or Spanish would be 100 times more useful, not just for travelling abroad but for work purposes, which extends well beyond hospitality - including tech support centres, for example.

 

[tecate]

Actually the benefits of learning a second language are well known memory, problem solving, critical thinking

better memory, problem solving and critical thinking you say Wolfie? Jebus we got this all wrong. Had we sent the Duke to Connemara these past four Summers, we'd be seeing results by now rather than his entrenched House of Wahhabi views. Missed opportunities.

 

[Betsy Og]

Half the attraction for Gaeilscoils is well known as having nothing to do with the language and to do with social sorting *

* There are less polite terms for it which could be more accurate.

This would only be a problem if the schools are barring non-nationals or "the wrong sort". "The wrong sort" are nothing if not dedicated in their devotion to being "the wrong sort", and couldn't be bothered to break out of it - sure let 'em at it.

 

[odyssey06]

This would only be a problem if the schools are barring non-nationals or "the wrong sort". "The wrong sort" are nothing if not dedicated in their devotion to being "the wrong sort", and couldn't be bothered to break out of it - sure let 'em at it.

Their policies are a bar to non nationals, which is just a subtle way of barring them.
I dont mean they were setup to do that deliberately by their founders but it has had that consequence and is one of the reasons for their popularity in certain areas.

 

[WolfeTone]

French or Spanish would be 100 times

Well ok, out of the hundreds (thousands?) of languages and dialects exception made for global languages of English, Spanish, French, Chinese.
Although having said that the only time I ever used French was on holiday in France.
The only time I used Spanish, likewise, although on that occasion I got the raised eyebrows and 'easier if we just communicate in English bud', look.