"Belfast" vs "Good Friday" agreement

[Duke of Marmalade]

Reading a bit about the era, (Ulster Unionism 2, Buckland) there were 9 county men and 6 county men, the 6 were chosen specifically to lock in a unionist majority - so specifically drawing the area to get the political outcome you want is, I think, close enough. You'd say something if the 6 were already an entity and/or were overwhelmingly unionist, leave them at it (the French equivalent). But to maximise the land while still keeping the power was not some convenient natural grouping.

Young Betsy, it is not gerrymandering, but is it equally mischievous? I don't think so.
The whole WW1 and WW2 peace settlement processes were about redrawing the map of Europe to best reflect ethnic loyalties. Some very weird geographic borders make up a map of Europe. The aim was to have an ethnic majority in each country sufficiently large that the majority would feel secure and therefore generous to the minority, It was recognised that evenly split ethnic situations were a recipe for trouble. Similarly the partition of the Indian sub continent sought to have sufficiently large religious majorities in each country.
Now when it came to the partition of Ireland a 9 county solution would have been even more unstable than the 6 county version. Unfortunately, whilst the 6 counties appeared to give Ulster protestants a secure majority they never felt secure and so unfortunately they did not behave generously to the minority. That they didn't feel secure was not entirely their fault.

 

[WolfeTone]

The whole WW1 and WW2 peace settlement processes were about redrawing the map of Europe to best reflect ethnic loyalties. Some very weird geographic borders make up a map of Europe. The aim was to have an ethnic majority in each country sufficiently large that the majority would feel secure and therefore generous to the minority,

Yes, it was called Irish Independence from British rule. The Irish, broadly Catholic and ethnic minority in the UK governing for themselves.
Becoming the dominant ethnicity on the island of Ireland, generosity to Protestant minority was undoubtedly a measure of Irish ability to govern. So much so that The Proclaimation had this to say

"The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all the children of the nation equally, and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien Government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past."

Of course, actions speak louder than words, and the mass slaughter of innocent Protestants in Dunmanway and border areas of Ulster by so called good ol' IRA in war of 'independence' didn't help.
But Protestants and Unionists didn't do themselves much favours either, attacking, murdering and discriminating against innocent Catholics.

That they didn't feel secure was not entirely their fault.

It seems their insecurity is a consequence of the prospect of not being part of the UK. To such an extent that even if the people of NI were to ever vote to leave the UK there would be a violent reaction.

Someone needs to tell that it is the 21st century. Someone needs to tell them that not being in the UK does not automatically result in the sky falling in.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

@WolfeTone I was discussing whether choosing 6 instead of 9 was a wicked gerrymander. It was not technically a gerrymander, though admittedly in that space.
Was it wicked? I presume the population of Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal did not regard as such. Maybe it should have been 4. The people of Fermanagh and Tyrone were certainly short changed.

 

[WolfeTone]

I was discussing whether choosing 6 instead of 9 was a wicked gerrymander.

I was simply agreeing with your view that boundaries drawn after WW1 to have an ethnic majority significantly large that the majority would feel comfortable and treat the minority with generosity.
In Irelands case, after WW1, this opportunity was not afforded as the plan was to separate the minority (as highlighted in the Proclaimation) from the majority rather than foster mutual acceptance and peaceful co-existence of one another in their own country.

 

[Purple]

Was it wicked? I presume the population of Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal did not regard as such.

I'd say the significant Unionist population of Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal did.

Of course, actions speak louder than words, and the mass slaughter of innocent Protestants in Dunmanway and border areas of Ulster by so called good ol' IRA in war of 'independence' didn't help.

Yep, from 1890 to 1990 the Protestant population of the 26 counties of Ireland declined from 10% to 3% of the total, though it's on the rise since.

edit; typo fixed.

 

[WolfeTone]

from 1980 to 1990 the Protestant population of the 26 counties of Ireland declined from 10% to 3% of the total, though it's on the rise since

Have you got a source for that, its sounds a little excessive to me but I open to being corrected.

 

[Purple]

Have you got a source for that, its sounds a little excessive to me but I open to being corrected.

Sorry, my typo, it's 1890 to 1990.

 

[WolfeTone]

Sorry, my typo, it's 1890 to 1990.

No worries, I thought it may be. Indeed, according to Wiki that is the case. However, stats can often be misleading. Notably, the biggest % declined occurred between the census of 1911 and 1926 (9.92% to 6.98%). This I would suggest is broadly due to the partition of the island with the 1911 figure accounting for All-Ireland, 1926 only for the 26 counties.

The continued decline of Protestant population in the republic is not totally out of sync with the decline in the overall population which did not start to reverse until the 1960's.
The Protestant population still continued to decline right up to the 1990's despite an increasing overall population, but notably so, it has increased since then while the Catholic population continues to decline. A lot of this decline I would suggest can be put down to increasing secularism and diversity within the population rather than anything of a sinister nature to make life uncomfortable for Protestants.

Since 1991, the population of Protestants in numeric terms in the republic has risen from 107,423 to 195,797 - an 82% increase in 30yrs.

Protestantism in the Republic of Ireland

 

[Purple]

No worries, I thought it may be. Indeed, according to Wiki that is the case. However, stats can often be misleading. Notably, the biggest % declined occurred between the census of 1911 and 1926 (9.92% to 6.98%). This I would suggest is broadly due to the partition of the island with the 1911 figure accounting for All-Ireland, 1926 only for the 26 counties.

I wondered about that and the figures are for this part of the island only.
The increase since 1991 is largely due to immigration. The "happy-clappy" brands of Born Again protestants.

 

[WolfeTone]

I wondered about that and the figures are for this part of the island only.

The 1911 census figures are for the whole of the island.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

@WolfeTone, @Purple
I consulted the font of all truth:

The following table shows the figures for the main Protestant denominations in what is now the Republic of Ireland from 1901 to 2011
1901 10.21%
1926 6.98%
2011 4.27%

One of the reasons cited for the sharp decline from 1901 to 2011 is that Protestant girls married British soldiers during the WoI and then relocated when the war was over. Hard to believe that was a big factor. Another reason is "ne temere" which required children of mixed marriages to be brought up Catholics. Heaven forbid there was any ethnic cleansing.

 

[Purple]

Another reason is "ne temere" which required children of mixed marriages to be brought up Catholics. Heaven forbid there was any ethnic cleansing.

A rose by any other name...

 

[WolfeTone]

@Duke of Marmalade not sure what the bold descript is for suffice to say that there was no Republic of Ireland (or Free State) pre-1920. The decline during 1911 to 1926 can largely be attributable a 32 county count pre 1920 and 26 county count thereafter.

"After the establishment of the Irish Free State in 1922, the Protestant population declined sharply county count pre 1921 and a 26 county count thereafter. As Wiki page cites"

Some of reasons for decline seem valid, others nor so. The compulsory teaching of Irish in schools seems a bizarre reason to upsticks and move on. I'm sure many Catholics resented the teaching of Irish also?

Another reason is "ne temere" which required children of mixed marriages to be brought up Catholics. Heaven forbid there was any ethnic cleansing.

Perhaps a factor for the decline, but not a significant one by any means. Given how "uncomfortable" Catholics and Protestants were to one another in the first instance, the extent of mixed marriages was surely on the fringes.

Critical to all of this however is, as in NI, the concerns and overt discriminatory policies of one religious class over the other are now a thing of the past.
No reason why Irish people of all persuasions cannot unite and govern themselves in one peaceful democratic country instead of this two state power-sharing nonsense.

 

[Purple]

@Duke of Marmalade not sure what the bold descript is for suffice to say that there was no Republic of Ireland (or Free State) pre-1920. The decline during 1911 to 1926 can largely be attributable a 32 county count pre 1920 and 26 county count thereafter.

"After the establishment of the Irish Free State in 1922, the Protestant population declined sharply county count pre 1921 and a 26 county count thereafter. As Wiki page cites"

Some of reasons for decline seem valid, others nor so. The compulsory teaching of Irish in schools seems a bizarre reason to upsticks and move on. I'm sure many Catholics resented the teaching of Irish also?



Perhaps a factor for the decline, but not a significant one by any means. Given how "uncomfortable" Catholics and Protestants were to one another in the first instance, the extent of mixed marriages was surely on the fringes.

Critical to all of this however is, as in NI, the concerns and overt discriminatory policies of one religious class over the other are now a thing of the past.
No reason why Irish people of all persuasions cannot unite and govern themselves in one peaceful democratic country instead of this two state power-sharing nonsense.

From the link we both cited;

The exact numbers of migration based upon religious affiliation before 1926 is complicated by various different reasons.[5] However between the 1911 and 1926 census' it has been suggested that there was a migration of 106,456 people from minority-religions, with at least 60,000 Protestants not connected to the British administration in Ireland.[5] During this period the number of Protestants in what became the Irish Free State dropped from 10% to 7%.[1] This represented a drop of 32% in the Protestant population compared to the 2% drop in the Catholic population.[1] This decrease is often linked to the removal of British forces from the Free State, however the rate of decline was quite similar between native and foreign born Protestants and the drop was five times greater than the total number of Protestants in the British forces in 1911.[1]

On the issue of inter-marriage with Catholics;

Between 1901 and 1911, 15% of Protestant males were in mixed-marriages.[2] The 1901 census indicates that nearly 80% of mixed-marriages resulted in any children being brought up as Catholics, even before the Vatican issued Ne Temere in 1907,[2] which meant that children in all mixed-marriages must be brought up as Catholics. In the following period from 1911 to 1926 it seems likely that due to an increase in contention between Protestants and Catholics, there was a decrease in mixed-marriages.[2]

It's also reasonable to suggest that in the decades after independence the rates of intermarriage increased again and, due to Ne Temere just about all the children were brought up Catholic.

The Catholic Church was the main force driving the ethnic cleansing of our Protestant population after independence.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

@Duke of Marmalade not sure what the bold descript is for suffice to say that there was no Republic of Ireland (or Free State) pre-1920. The decline during 1911 to 1926 can largely be attributable a 32 county count pre 1920 and 26 county count thereafter.

I think you are plain wrong here. I put it in bold to emphasise that in this particular table Wiki had confined the figures to a like for like of what is now RoI. Perfectly possible since the 1901 census was on a county basis.

Perhaps a factor for the decline, but not a significant one by any means. Given how "uncomfortable" Catholics and Protestants were to one another in the first instance, the extent of mixed marriages was surely on the fringes.

I doubt it was a big factor. But whilst mixed marriages were on the fringe in society at large they would be much more relevant to the small Protestant population.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

@Purple our posts crossed.

 

[odyssey06]

Some of reasons for decline seem valid, others nor so. The compulsory teaching of Irish in schools seems a bizarre reason to upsticks and move on. I'm sure many Catholics resented the teaching of Irish also?

Perhaps a factor for the decline, but not a significant one by any means. Given how "uncomfortable" Catholics and Protestants were to one another in the first instance, the extent of mixed marriages was surely on the fringes.

Critical to all of this however is, as in NI, the concerns and overt discriminatory policies of one religious class over the other are now a thing of the past.
No reason why Irish people of all persuasions cannot unite and govern themselves in one peaceful democratic country instead of this two state power-sharing nonsense.

The language barrier was a discriminatory policy which made the Free State a cold house for Protestants.
It wasn't just compulsory teaching in schools, it was needed for advancement in civil service and government positions.

 

[WolfeTone]

The language barrier was a discriminatory policy which made the Free State a cold house for Protestants.

How is the Irish language a discriminatory policy for Protestants??


Douglas de-Íde, Irelands first President, a Protestant, was a fluent Irish speaker. Edward Carson, a fluent Irish speaker.
Irish language is as much a part of Protestant culture and heritage as it is Catholic.
Many of the Protestant planters from Scotland were Gaelic speakers. There was little difference in language between Scottish Gaelic speakers and Irish Gaelic speakers.
In fact, to be able to read and write in Irish and not being of the clergy signified your Protestant status. Illiteracy levels among Catholics were a lot higher.
This elevation of Irish language to that of an Irish Nationalist endeavour to impose discrimination against Protestants is wholly false.
That Irish nationalism adopted a revival of the language is ond thing, to conflate it with discriminating against Protestants is false.
There were many Protestant Irish Nationalists (see my username).

 

[odyssey06]

How is the Irish language a discriminatory policy for Protestants??


Douglas de-Íde, Irelands first President, a Protestant, was a fluent Irish speaker. Edward Carson, a fluent Irish speaker.
Irish language is as much a part of Protestant culture and heritage as it is Catholic.
Many of the Protestant planters from Scotland were Gaelic speakers. There was little difference in language between Scottish Gaelic speakers and Irish Gaelic speakers.
In fact, to be able to read and write in Irish and not being of the clergy signified your Protestant status. Illiteracy levels among Catholics were a lot higher.
This elevation of Irish language to that of an Irish Nationalist endeavour to impose discrimination against Protestants is wholly false.
That Irish nationalism adopted a revival of the language is ond thing, to conflate it with discriminating against Protestants is false.
There were many Protestant Irish Nationalists (see my username).

It's discriminatory, and obviously so. The fact that you can't see that shows how much of a blind spot you have to it.

There were many Protestant Irish nationalists, what about the other Protestants who had no interest in the language?
Put yourself in the position of those Protestants and it is obvious why they would see it was a hostile act towards them.
It's not their language, it's not part of their culture and ethos.
And they are the ones we are talking about, the ones who left and why did they leave.
The language was used as a shibboleth of your loyalty to the new state.
Either you were on board with the ethos of the new state of you were not, no other kind could be tolerated.
Why would you stick around to go through those hoops?

In reviving the language and putting it to such a core position it was clear that the new government had zero regard for anyone with a different ethos to it. It was a hostile act to Protestants. As I said, it was a cold house for Protestants.

 

[WolfeTone]

I think you are plain wrong here.

I understand where you coming from and you may be correct. But the decline in Protestant population goes from 311,461 to 207,307 from 1911 to 1926. Or a 104,154 decline.

The NI (average) population from 1911 to 1926 shows little increase, from 1,246,000 to 1,254,000. So if Protestants were uncomfortable in the Free State , NI did not appear to be the desired destination.
That said, within that period, there is a notable decline in 1915 to 1,210,000 but this coincides with the outbreak of war in Europe.
In 1919, there is a notable increase in population to 1,250,000, again, coinciding with the end of war in 1918.

From the period of the Treaty and the establishment of the Free State, there is no notable increase in the population of NI.

If Protestants were leaving the Free State, where did they go?