Are we a failed state?

And you think this just describes Ireland. I have lived in a few Countries over the years and despite Irish peoples propensity to always think the grass is always greener on the other side, I have yet to experience a Country that didn't have many of the same problems as we have here.
Ireland has many problems and this is the opportunity to change things for the better but do I think we are a failed State. No, I don't.

I was at a business conference recently and I was talking to an foreign investor. He couldn't over the Irish people's ability to beat themselves up over the recession and the State of the Country.
 
horusd said:
And the unelected officials at the ECB and the EU now control our destiny. We are at their mercy, and the mercy of Germany & France.

Where is democracy in Ireland?
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The ECB & EU have been controlling our destiny for many years now. Most people have been ignorant of that fact. Irish democracy has been playing second fiddle to our political classes' desire to be seen as good EUropeans. At least there was a general election between Nice I and Nice II, but Lisbon II was naked treason. That they conspired to deny a Presidential election last time just underscores the disregard for democracy.

The slow death of Irish democracy and sovereignty by an increasingly corrupt and short-sighted political class has been compounded by the worst decision in the history of the State. Ultimately I suppose that the people are to blame; due to the lack of outrage the politicians are detached and feel they can act with impunity, with no fear of being taken out of their beds.
 
Great posts, one and all. I guess the answer to the question depends on your standards. If you have average standards then you will be quite happy with the state. If you have high standards then it will likely appear a failure.
 
Depressingly as Ceist Beag says there's liitle in Purple's post to argue with. I want to be positive too, and we should all have our shoulder to the wheel in getting us up and out. But we have got to face the truth first. There is a canker at the heart of this country. No effective ethical/moral steering wheel that holds a vision of what we are supposed to be about. What do we mean by a just society? How we intend to implement it? Does anyone think that the idealism and vision of the 1916'rs was about getting re-elected or ensuring a good salary/pension for themselves or looking after their business buddies? It was about moral principles not about markets and money, and blatent self-interest.

To say other countries are just as bad, or the grass is always greener is to invite and perpetuate a kind of cynicism where lip-service is paid to values. No one, least of all me, is expecting a just utopia, but we must address the glaring defects and honestly admit this state has effectively failed for want of justice.

And it's not correct to say that "it's the economy stupid" and focus on fixing that so we can all go back to economic security, albiet that that too is important. This is the greatest myth of market-driven western economics in which all are just cogs in the financial matrix.

Does anyone really think that lying on their deathbeds, they will regret not having enough money for two holidays a year, or that they failed to be just, be honest, be fair, be generous, be caring or loving ? It might matter more to have left a legacy of a better more just world, a safer, more caring world, a more sustainable planet? These are enduring humanistic values that should guide us , but don't.

Orwell's 1984 envisioned a world dominated by a machine-like political system. His greatest fear was communism. But much of his fears have come true within capitalism.
 
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horusd said:
To say other countries are just as bad, or the grass is always greener is to invite and perpetuate a kind of cynicism where lip-service is paid to values. No one, least of all me, is expecting a just utopia, but we must address the glaring defects and honestly admit this state has effectively failed for want of justice.
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You are beginning to sound like John Waters or Fintan O Toole. We can all sit behind a computer and write an opinion piece for a newspaper or post online about how rotten Ireland is and how we have betrayed the people who fought for our independence. And yet few people are willing to do anything to change it.

How many with views about the political system have attempted to change it from within instead of moaning on the outside. 40-50% of the population can't even be bothered to vote.

We give out about our health system and yet when we try to introduce international best practice, we have people taking to the streets to protect their local services.

We give out about corruption and the law but what have people done about it? How many people contact their political representatives on legislative issues of national interest. How many have contributed to various public consultations on the different issues?

Ireland is not a failed State because the people still control the State. When the days comes that you can't write what you are writing without the State coming for you, then we will be a failed State. Until then, it is your Country so what are you going to do about changing the things you don't like?
 
horusd said:
Depressingly as Ceist Beag says there's liitle in Purple's post to argue with. I want to be positive too, and we should all have our shoulder to the wheel in getting us up and out. But we have got to face the truth first. There is a canker at the heart of this country. No effective ethical/moral steering wheel that holds a vision of what we are supposed to be about. What do we mean by a just society? How we intend to implement it? Does anyone think that the idealism and vision of the 1916'rs was about getting re-elected or ensuring a good salary/pension for themselves or looking after their business buddies? It was about moral principles not about markets and money, and blatent self-interest.

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I doubt the founding fathers of the USA had images of Wall Street or politicians spending millions on getting elected
 
If I sound like Fintan I'll take it as a compliment, I'll pass on John. It's easy to knock people who complain about the state of the nation too, and just complain that nobody does anything about it. None of that addresses the issues that need to be addressed. And yes I doubt too that some of the Founding Fathers would be chuffed with Wall Street. But then some of them were slave owners, so who knows.
 
horusd said:
If I sound like Fintan I'll take it as a compliment, I'll pass on John. It's easy to knock people who complain about the state of the nation too, and just complain that nobody does anything about it. None of that addresses the issues that need to be addressed. And yes I doubt too that some of the Founding Fathers would be chuffed with Wall Street. But then some of them were slave owners, so who knows.
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What issues? You launched into a broad attack on the state of the Nation but I still don't know what you are looking for? Talking about values, ethics and just societies sounds great but what does it mean?
We may not be a perfect society but we are a long way from the picture that you paint.
 
Sunny said:
And yet few people are willing to do anything to change it.

How many with views about the political system have attempted to change it from within instead of moaning on the outside. 40-50% of the population can't even be bothered to vote.

We give out about our health system and yet when we try to introduce international best practice, we have people taking to the streets to protect their local services.

We give out about corruption and the law but what have people done about it? How many people contact their political representatives on legislative issues of national interest. How many have contributed to various public consultations on the different issues?

Ireland is not a failed State because the people still control the State. When the days comes that you can't write what you are writing without the State coming for you, then we will be a failed State. Until then, it is your Country so what are you going to do about changing the things you don't like?
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That's the point I was making.
 
Sunny said:
I doubt the founding fathers of the USA had images of Wall Street or politicians spending millions on getting elected
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I agree, they didn’t. In fact they were totally opposed to capitalism and capitalists. Many of the founding fathers was capitalism as the enemy of democracy . It was the main reason that Washington and Jefferson became such bitter enemies. They came within hours of civil war on the issue around the time negotiations were taking place for the second constitutional congress in Connecticut but in the end the debt crisis which followed the war of independence meant that a strong federal government with a central bank was necessary as the debts of individual states were federalised. The similarities with what is happening now within the EU are striking.
 
Purple said:
Are we a failed state?

Politics:
Our electoral system lends itself to cronyism and parochialism, in fact it necessitates it.
We will always have a strong Parliament and a weak government, therefore populism is inevitable and hard decisions are almost impossible to make.
This cocktail leads inevitably to corruption and cronyism as in order to get things done our weak government has to get too close to the vested interest groups that have an effective veto over change. Garrett Fitzgerald said in an interview last year that the only reason that Ireland didn’t become totally corrupt before the 1980’s was the integrity of the various leaders we had. I’m inclined to agree.
Conclusion; our political structures are not fit for purpose.

Economics:
We have failed to build a sustainable taxation system to pay for the services we want. We have given ourselves a totally unrealistic level of expectation of what our government can and should provide for us. We have also given the people delivering those services a totally unrealistic level of income expectation; the discussion has always been about what people deserve to get paid, not what the state can afford to pay.
Over the last 10 to 15 years we have engaged in the most blatant pro-cyclical economic policies possible and the public ignored all calls to counter this.
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I think this is quite a good assessment of politics and economics at the moment.

However, I am relunctant to call Ireland a failed state if it can recover economically (albeit with a lot of help over a long period) and bring some reform to the political (and banking) structure and ensure that the same mistakes don't reoccur. There are a lot of good things about this country.
 
Sunny said:
What issues? You launched into a broad attack on the state of the Nation but I still don't know what you are looking for? Talking about values, ethics and just societies sounds great but what does it mean?
We may not be a perfect society but we are a long way from the picture that you paint.
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The issues are those that demonstrate the state a failure,or as near as and I've listed some others have also. The broad attack is central just because the nature of the problem is endemic and widespread.

Relative comparisons with other states or an over-focus on the economy miss the fact that this kind of malaise is ubiquitous and specifically our collective problem as citizens of this country. The question "is the nation a failed state?" invites full or partial agreement or defence of the status quo.

What do I want? Firstly a debate as to what is wrong and how to fix it. "Denial is not a river in Egypt" and "Paddy likes to know". My central point is that we lack adherence to a moral base that is central to the 1916 declaration, a set of principles we take as "self-evident" that guide our nation. All actions arise from principles. We cannot act without reasons. Moral relativism and an eye on a quick buck and re-election is no way to run a state.
 
horusd said:
The issues are those that demonstrate the state a failure,or as near as and I've listed some others have also. The broad attack is central just because the nature of the problem is endemic and widespread.

Relative comparisons with other states or an over-focus on the economy miss the fact that this kind of malaise is ubiquitous and specifically our collective problem as citizens of this country. The question "is the nation a failed state?" invites full or partial agreement or defence of the status quo.

What do I want? Firstly a debate as to what is wrong and how to fix it. "Denial is not a river in Egypt" and "Paddy likes to know". My central point is that we lack adherence to a moral base that is central to the 1916 declaration, a set of principles we take as "self-evident" that guide our nation. All actions arise from principles. We cannot act without reasons. Moral relativism and an eye on a quick buck and re-election is no way to run a state.
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I’m not sure I want to live in a country based on what the signatories of the 1916 proclamation wanted. Connelly was a communist and Pearse was, by modern standards, nuts. I agree that we need a set of guiding principles but I don’t think they should necessarily be the 1916 ones.
 
Purple said:
I’m not sure I want to live in a country based on what the signatories of the 1916 proclamation wanted. Connelly was a communist and Pearse was, by modern standards, nuts. I agree that we need a set of guiding principles but I don’t think they should necessarily be the 1916 ones.
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Exactly. Can't see those guys lining up to support civil partnership bills. I have no problem with drawing up a new constitution to reflect modern society but looking to the past is not the way to do it.
 
Sunny said:
I have no problem with drawing up a new constitution to reflect modern society but looking to the past is not the way to do it.
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What parts of this would you disagree with (having cut some of the warmongering stuff);
We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible. The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by the destruction of the Irish people. ...The Irish Republic is entitled to, and hereby claims, the allegiance of every Irishman and Irishwoman. The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all the children of the nation equally, and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past.
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