Are we a failed state?

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horusd

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What kind of monsterous society do we live in? Judges must volunteer for wage cuts at least until the referendum, likewise the chief ex.'s of semi-states. Vastly overpaid hospital consultants will be excluded from the wage ceiling whilst they consult with the health minister. No such choices for the minimum wage earners. They must take what they are given.

Meanwhile, debt incurred privately by the rich is socialised and laid on the backs of taxpayers who had no hand, act or part in incurring them. Bankrupt speculators rush to protect their assets using legal loopholes (transfers to the wife etc). No one is sitting in a jail cell for any of this, or even before a court. Bank executives who beggared their banks walk away with vast pay-outs. Politicians who beggared the country likewise. None of them can be touched.

Billions can be found to rescue banks, but we leave schoolkids in portacabins and cut special needs teachers. Rich pensioners keep medical cards and the rich get priority in healthcare.

And the unelected officials at the ECB and the EU now control our destiny. We are at their mercy, and the mercy of Germany & France.

Where is democracy in Ireland? where is justice? Where is fairness? Where is morality? Where the hell are republican values that are supposed to underpin this nation of supposed equals?

For my part, I think we are a failed state. There is something deeply wrong with this country.
 
horusd said:
For my part, I think we are a failed state. There is something deeply wrong with this country.
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Very interesting thought, I hadn't actually tried to look at Ireland in this perspective. At first when I read you using the term failed state I thought of Zimbabwe and that it would be ludicrous to make such a comparison. Anyway, to avoid jumping to conclusions I looked up the wikipedia definition of a failed state:
The term failed state is often used by political commentators and journalists to describe a state perceived as having failed at some of the basic conditions and responsibilities of a sovereign government. In order to make this definition more precise, the following attributes, proposed by the Fund for Peace, are often used to characterize a failed state:

* loss of control of its territory, or of the monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force therein,
* erosion of legitimate authority to make collective decisions,
* an inability to provide public services, and
* an inability to interact with other states as a full member of the international community.

Often a failed nation is characterized by social, political, and economic failure.
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I think there is a very good argument to be made to deem Ireland a failed state based on these points. Nevertheless, Ireland does not feature on the list of failed states, but of course everything is relative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Failed_States_Index

Seems like the devil lies in the detail of defining the above 4 characteristics. Compared to Germany and Switzerland Ireland is definitely a failed state. Compared to Zimbabwe and Yemen it is a total success story.
 
40,000 semi state workers who have suffered no pay reduction
and in many cases have gotten pay increases....
 
horusd said:
What kind of monsterous society do we live in? Judges must volunteer for wage cuts at least until the referendum, likewise the chief ex.'s of semi-states. Vastly overpaid hospital consultants will be excluded from the wage ceiling whilst they consult with the health minister. No such choices for the minimum wage earners. They must take what they are given.

Meanwhile, debt incurred privately by the rich is socialised and laid on the backs of taxpayers who had no hand, act or part in incurring them. Bankrupt speculators rush to protect their assets using legal loopholes (transfers to the wife etc). No one is sitting in a jail cell for any of this, or even before a court. Bank executives who beggared their banks walk away with vast pay-outs. Politicians who beggared the country likewise. None of them can be touched.

Billions can be found to rescue banks, but we leave schoolkids in portacabins and cut special needs teachers. Rich pensioners keep medical cards and the rich get priority in healthcare.

And the unelected officials at the ECB and the EU now control our destiny. We are at their mercy, and the mercy of Germany & France.

Where is democracy in Ireland? where is justice? Where is fairness? Where is morality? Where the hell are republican values that are supposed to underpin this nation of supposed equals?

For my part, I think we are a failed state. There is something deeply wrong with this country.
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Anyone who lied about how much money they earned, who took out 100% mortgages, who bought houses they didn't want to live in in places they didn't want to live in to "get on the ladder" must take some blame also. Groupthink took over and now that it's been shown to be, what it always was, greed - people are looking to blame others.

People need to take responsibility, it's not always someone else's fault.

I would say in many respects we are a failed state, but we got the state that people voted for in election after election so we have no-one to blame but ourselves.
 
horusd said:
Meanwhile, debt incurred privately by the rich is socialised and laid on the backs of taxpayers who had no hand, act or part in incurring them.
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I agree with this for the most part, but I don't agree with it entirely. I live in Mayo and bought a house here in 2003. I could just about afford it. I often travel to Dublin and from 2003 to 2009 whenever I was in Dublin I would always stop at the front window of an estate agents, and look at the house prices in Dublin. I mean always. The house prices in Dublin were maybe 3 or 4 times more expensive than Mayo, and I wondered how could anyone who was my age living in Dublin afford property. If they were going to buy, they would have a massive mortgage for decades. This thought horrified me. I thought something in this country is very wrong. The economy in Ireland was awash with borrowed money and the housing boom was unsustainable. But Fianna Fail won the 2007 general election by a landslide. Who voted for them? The majority of Irish taxpayers did! Who purchased over priced houses? Irish taxpayers did!

I agree that most of the blame has to lie with the politicans and bankers, and with a failed system of checks and balances and lack of accountability but the taxpayer isn't 100% blameless. The taxpayer chose the politicians that lead this country into a mess, and in 2007 re-elected them again.
 
I see where horusd is coming from. Most of the time you live in hope that we'll pull through this mess somehow, but then there are days when things come home to roost, such as yesterday:

1) Why do we have to seek voluntary pay cuts from those on big bucks rather than just enforce these cuts? If it's a difficult process, then now is the time to overhaul it.

2) Why does a transport company, in this day and age, say that one of their intended responses to falling demand is to hike customer prices?

The two points above need more aggressive action from those we voted in to take care of such things
 
I don't know about a failed state but there seems to be an attitude of 'Looking after number 1' in the past couple of years.
IMO the previous government didn't help this by only cutting certain areas instead of spreading the pain to everyone. There is no reason why the proposed cuts to semi-state pay and judges pay could not be addressed two years ago.
In fairness to Brendan Howlin, he appears to be at least talking the talk so far.
 
Of course we are a failed state

1. Our finances are in absolute shatters and it's unlikely that we will ever be able to pull ourselves out of it without some form/level of state bankruptcy. The tax system just drives more and more people to social welfare and/or the black market where they can be better off than their working neighbours.

2. Our health system is a disgrace with waiting lists reminiscent of a Soviet food queue. However if you want to go private then you see a consultant within a week. Any moves from ministers to try to sort any aspect is met with strike threats and cries of "it's not our fault" from the relevant parties, be they administrators, nurses, junior doctors, or consultants.

3. Our justice system is massively out of touch with reality and you can't walk down the main street of most towns in Ireland after 10 o'clock without a chance of being beaten up or worse. The fact that we have to hold a referendum to reduce the pay of the judiciary just shows how out of touch these people are with the state of the country.

4. Our education system has been slipping down the list from 5th (of 39 countries) to 17th in terms of literacy in the last 10 years. But still ministers spout on about our "World-class education system". How do we improve it? We cut funds and special needs assistants from schools.

5. Our transport system is a joke with 5 or 6 different types of public transport available in our capital city but little or no linkage between some of them. The most recent addition, the Luas, has no link between the 2 lines. Trying to get from one Dublin suburb to another without a car involves military planning (and a lot of luck).
 
yadda yadda yadda. Maybe we're failed, maybe we're not. One thing is for sure, we have become a little bit spoiled over the years. Sure there are problems, and we may well be in too deep to get out of the financial mess, I don't proclaim to be an expert (nor are many of the commentators btw!), but we complain about so much these days it's hard to see how we can ever improve things unless we get a grip and start trying to be more proactive. Some of those points DB74 are just laughable they are so hysterical.
"Our health system is a disgrace with waiting lists reminiscent of a Soviet food queue. " - come on, it's far from perfect but reality check please. Maybe just maybe part of the problem with our health system is the strain it is being put under by us, the people of the state?
"you can't walk down the main street of most towns in Ireland after 10 o'clock without a chance of being beaten up or worse" - yeah right, it's a real ghetto out there!
"Our transport system is a joke with 5 or 6 different types of public transport available in our capital city but little or no linkage between some of them" - again a bit of perspective here. Apart from the issue of integrated ticketing I don't think it's that bad at all.
 
Ah yeah I was just having a bit of a rant there

However there are very very few areas of this country that we can look at and say "that is working very well, I'm happy with that"

I stand by the gist of what I said:

Health
Recent article: http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0622/health.html
Also we have had the recent debacles re unexamined patient referrals in Tallaght hospital

Crime
No-on said it was a ghetto. But if you think that alcohol-fuelled violence in all our major towns is not a problem then you do not go out enough

Transport
What part of Dublin do you live? A trip from Blanchardstown village to Lucan village for example (< 6 miles) involves taking 3 buses to make the journey. I'm sure there are countless other examples, particularly on the northside.
Also we must be the only capital city in Europe without a rail link to our airport.
 
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On the crime side DB74, no I don't get out near as much these days as I like but I still feel fairly safe walking around at night when I do get out. I certainly don't think it is anywhere as bad as you paint it. On transport, sure there are issues trying to get from one outer part of Dublin to another, but I doubt Dublin is too unlike other cities of a similar size in that most public transport is from outer parts to the city center. If not being able to get from Blanchardstown to Lucan in one journey is a major issue then I think we've lost sight of what a major issue is. It's far from perfect but in our current state I think public transport is way down the list of concerns.
 
What is the 'State' ?

Is it us as a people, or the system of Government; legislative, administrative, judicial.

Can you generalise one persistent character trait across all Irish people, from the farmer in Kerry to the hipster in TCD to the harrassed parent in Longford ?

'Are we a failed State' is a useful way of drawing out opinions, but are we all talking about the same thing ?
 
We are not a failed State. We are suffering a servere economic downturn but we are not the only ones. We are not the only State in history that has had property bubbles or a crisis in our banking system. We are not the only Country that has poured billions into banks. We are not the only Country with huge problems in our health system. We are not the only Country where there seems to be one rule for certain sections of society and another rule for the rest.

The Republic Of Ireland is less than 100 years old as a Sovereign State. We need to give ourselves a break. We are suffering now but we will get through it. The real issue is what type of Country we want to become.
 
I think in the future, people will look back at the 'Celtic Tiger' years of 2000-2007 as a major lost opportunity.
As a country, we blew it.
 
Shawady said:
I think in the future, people will look back at the 'Celtic Tiger' years of 2000-2007 as a major lost opportunity.
As a country, we blew it.
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The boom ended in 2003. After that it was a bubble. My analogy is that we were like passengers in a rocket heading straight up in the air. When the engines went silent a few people said “We’re in trouble; the engines have stopped” but the majority said “Rubbish; look out the window, we are still going up”. They confused momentum for propulsion. The propulsion stopped in 2003.
 
I was listening to RTE Radio 1 last night where one participant forecasted that come September (2011) we will be asking "Can we afford the inevitable 2nd Bailout?"

Are things going to get worse?
 
Purple said:
The boom ended in 2003. After that it was a bubble. My analogy is that we were like passengers in a rocket heading straight up in the air. When the engines went silent a few people said “We’re in trouble; the engines have stopped” but the majority said “Rubbish; look out the window, we are still going up”. They confused momentum for propulsion. The propulsion stopped in 2003.
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Great analogy Purple, it captures the essence of the economic problem.

The concept of a failed state (my definition) is that we have failed to create the state that is envisioned in the idea of a republic. The notion of judges, chief exec's etc voluntarily giving up income smacks of royalist noblesse oblige. The pay rates of the upper echelons of power in this country are scandalous compared to others in society and internationally.


The level of power exercised by small cabals and vested interests is equally scandalous. From doctors, dentists and lawyers to key unions such as those in the ESB, the balance of power and wealth is firmly in the hands of the few who cream off, consume and profit from the wealth of this nation. They do this without fear of any consequence. The whole society is in thrall to their needs and wishes and apparently exists to serve their ends. Meanwhilke we can leave kids in portacabins, we can leave people on hospital trolleys, kids can "disappear" from HSE care, bankers & their ilk can beggar the state with impunity, we can pay the likes of Marion Finnucane something like 750 K, I could go on and on.

And what is the control on power in this state? The legal system? No. Powerless and toothless and itself a vested interest. The media? At best patchy withe the big exception of Prime Time Investigates. Isn't it truly scandalous, shocking and fearsome that almost the only effective tool or voice is a few reporters in RTE who take their job seriously? This is almost our only defence against hegemony.

I repeat this is a failed state. This is little short of an abomination. This is not what the 1916 declaration was about. We have been mugged.
 
Are we a failed state?

Politics:
Our electoral system lends itself to cronyism and parochialism, in fact it necessitates it.
We will always have a strong Parliament and a weak government, therefore populism is inevitable and hard decisions are almost impossible to make.
This cocktail leads inevitably to corruption and cronyism as in order to get things done our weak government has to get too close to the vested interest groups that have an effective veto over change. Garrett Fitzgerald said in an interview last year that the only reason that Ireland didn’t become totally corrupt before the 1980’s was the integrity of the various leaders we had. I’m inclined to agree.
Conclusion; our political structures are not fit for purpose.

Economics:
We have failed to build a sustainable taxation system to pay for the services we want. We have given ourselves a totally unrealistic level of expectation of what our government can and should provide for us. We have also given the people delivering those services a totally unrealistic level of income expectation; the discussion has always been about what people deserve to get paid, not what the state can afford to pay.
Over the last 10 to 15 years we have engaged in the most blatant pro-cyclical economic policies possible and the public ignored all calls to counter this.

Governance:
The Civil Service is often referred to as the permanent government of the state and for good reason. If the Cabinet is the board of directors, passing through every few year, the Departmental Secretaries are the permanent managers who implement policy. They should also have an advisory function. We now see that the Department of Finance was incapable of voicing it’s concerns over government policy over the period of a decade. The department of justice is incapable of competently framing legislation so we have a situation where nobody will be prosecuted for the gross mismanagement of the banks, building societies or other large businesses whose activities have so damaged the state.

Citizenship:
Perhaps the biggest failing of all can be levelled at the citizens of this state.
Many of us, perhaps most of us, behaved like spoiled children over the last 10 to 15 years. We became greedy, arrogant and shallow. We all wanted to be net recipients of the states largess and while many of us were increasingly aware of what our rights were few of us asked ourselves if we had any responsibilities as citizens. This is a democracy and we are the state; the book stops with us. We have failed, we are the failed state.
 
Good post Purple, depressingly I would have to agree with all of that. Now if only there was a way out of this mess that we could all believe in and get behind, as I'm fed up moaning and cribbing, I would like to start channeling some positive energy to help improve things.
 
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