Anyone else get a letter

[Complainer]

A million have not paid. That is govt spin.

[broken link removed]

Just let me understand your claim fully here - you are suggesting that the specific figures given in this press release are incorrect, and have been inflated to support the Govt's point - that's one of the bases of your arguement here - right?

And resentment from those that have paid towards those who were principled or smart enough to not pay although understandable is misguided. Why not direct your anger against speculator bondholders that you gladly bailed out rather that your struggling neighbor for his refusal to pay gambling debts of international hedge funds.

We are where we are. I don't like where we are, and I don't like how we got here, but we are where we are. The Household Charge amounts would barely be a drop in the ocean of what we've paid out on banking debt. This is a red herring, designed to avoid implementation of one of a progressive tax instrument.

Time is not on side of govt. They have to decide pretty soon whether to proceed with property tax next year or have another HouseholdCharge. They don't have database for property tax and another year of Household Charge would be a disaster given numbers that haven't paid this year.

There is no disaster here. The majority have paid, and the remainder will be sucked in as time goes on, with all the extra penalties on top.

 

[monore]

[broken link removed]

Just let me understand your claim fully here - you are suggesting that the specific figures given in this press release are incorrect, and have been inflated to support the Govt's point - that's one of the bases of your arguement here - right?

Priceless. You claim that a million have paid. I dispute this claim and you come back and support you claim that a million have paid with a link with stats to show that less than a million have paid.

However where I believe the govt is lying is in their claim that their are only 1.6 million liable households. Census last year had over 2 million households in Ireland. At most only 250,000 of these households would be exempt.

 

[monore]

[broken link removed]


We are where we are. ........ a progressive tax instrument.

.

Haven't heard that phrase since FF TDs were banned from using it before last election. So you think that the Household Charge is a progressive tax instrument. We fundamentally disagree.

 

[Firefly]

The Household Charge amounts would barely be a drop in the ocean of what we've paid out on banking debt....

Which is only a fraction itself of the budget deficit debt...

 

[netz]

I didnt pay, I dont agree with it, and to be totally honest, I really havent got the money. I never got a letter, and dont really care if I do. I dont want to be breaking the law, but my position is, if I had known when I initially bought my house that I would have to pay a property tax every year on it, I would probably not have bought at all. This tax will be every year for the rest of my life, long after the (NEGATIVE EQUITY AT THE MOMENT) mortgage is finished, and I will be struggling to pay it out of OAP.

I was worried when I saw the reports of 2nd letters and threats of legal action - Ive never even had so much as a speeding fine in my life - and I think it is deplorable that I am now choosing to break the law, rather than pay. I know I will be frightened and feel bullied if I do get a letter, but I will on principle stick to my decision not to pay. I live in an estate with over 100 houses in it, and only 2 houses that I know of have paid. I dont believe the compliance figures the government is spilling out to us either - they just dont add up

 

[mandelbrot]

Priceless. You claim that a million have paid. I dispute this claim and you come back and support you claim that a million have paid with a link with stats to show that less than a million have paid.

Hold on, are you actually splitting hairs over the distinction between 990,459 and 1 million , or am I missing something?

 

[monore]

Hold on, are you actually splitting hairs over the distinction between 990,459 and 1 million:

Perhaps a tad pedantic. I was more commenting on his correcting and challenging my correction with a link to figures which undermined his claim and confirmed my correction.

 

[orka]

Perhaps a tad pedantic. I was more commenting on his correcting and challenging my correction with a link to figures which undermined his claim and confirmed my correction.

Except it didn't undermine his claim and confirm your correction - it confirmed his claim as any reasonable person would agree that 'a million' have paid when the actual number is 990K...
The tone of your 'a million have not paid, that is government spin' was more 'don't be ridiculous, it's nowhere near that number' than 'well, putting my pedantic hat on, I would have to dispute the exactness of that assertion...'

I personally think there should be a sticker to put in your front window when you have paid the charge (or have a waiver) so it is easy to spot the houses that haven't and target them. Particularly in urban areas, it would be a relatively easy task to drive around and write down the address that didn't have the stickers - obviously some people will forget/not want to put up the sticker but there will be a record of payment somewhere to clear that up.

 

[Protocol]

I didnt pay, I dont agree with it, and to be totally honest, I really havent got the money. I never got a letter, and dont really care if I do. I dont want to be breaking the law, but my position is, if I had known when I initially bought my house that I would have to pay a property tax every year on it, I would probably not have bought at all. This tax will be every year for the rest of my life, long after the (NEGATIVE EQUITY AT THE MOMENT) mortgage is finished, and I will be struggling to pay it out of OAP.

I was worried when I saw the reports of 2nd letters and threats of legal action - Ive never even had so much as a speeding fine in my life - and I think it is deplorable that I am now choosing to break the law, rather than pay. I know I will be frightened and feel bullied if I do get a letter, but I will on principle stick to my decision not to pay. I live in an estate with over 100 houses in it, and only 2 houses that I know of have paid. I dont believe the compliance figures the government is spilling out to us either - they just dont add up

The first round of reminder letters was sent to landlords only.

You own a house, and yet you can't afford 100 euro?? How do you manage with repairs, maintenance, insurance, etc.

The State Pension is 11,960pa, so 100 is affordable.

It's impossible to know compliance rates in any estate.

 

[elcato]

I personally think there should be a sticker to put in your front window when you have paid the charge (or have a waiver) so it is easy to spot the houses that haven't and target them.

While I kinda agree with this (similar to bin stickers), I would think it may be dangerous as no doubt a campaign of us and them will start. You can't expect adults to behave in a rational way can you ?

 

[Frank]

protocol you may own your house but I am mortgaged up to my eyes.

I stupidly didn't sell my house as the market was plummeting, with no movement in the market. Silly me.
I felt I had no choice but to rent and become a landlord. We are not all there by choice.
The crystal ball was broken that week.

I have paid PAYE since 16
Tax on income from property
NPPR again I feel silly for doing this now.
I have never had the benefit of a tax amnesty.

Easy for those with plenty to pontificate.

We will pay a levy to pay the Quinn debacle
The social charge willl probably never go away.
We are getting less for PRSI.

I am getting tired of assuming the position.

 

[netz]

You own a house, and yet you can't afford 100 euro?? How do you manage with repairs, maintenance, insurance, etc.

The State Pension is 11,960pa, so 100 is affordable.

It's impossible to know compliance rates in any estate.

We own a mortgage, not the house - yet! Our income has dropped considerably in the 6 years since we bought the house, and we are currently on reduced payments as we cant afford to pay the full mortgage. And we stupidly allowed ourselves a 30 year mortgage - paying untill we are 75 years old - if we live that long. And at that stage the 100 household charge will have grown into approx. €1500 a year in property and water tax - combined with mortgage payments out of OAP??? We know it is our own fault, we like many others were carried away on that cloud of reckless lending by the banks - I was on SW when we got a huge mortgage, and we didnt lie about our circumstances either - they gave us the amount we stupidly asked for, and offered us more which we had the sense to refuse. We live in an ordinary house, probably worth half what we paid for it, so please dont judge us for being struggling home owners, or should I rephrase that to "mortgage holders". And like I said, if I knew 6 years ago that I would be hit for a property/water tax, which could possibly hit the €1500 region - every year for the length of time we stay as owners, there is no way on earth we would have ever considered buying our own home.

As for the compliance rates - it is not possible to tell on an estate who has or hasnt paid - I am just conveying what has been said to me, and trusting that what I am being told is the truth - I am sure there is the odd person who may have paid the charge, but feels like the odd one out so pretends they havent for whatever reason, and that is entirely their own business.

Everyone's circumstances are different - lots of people are asset rich and cash poor, they might live in big houses with huge negative equity mortgages, and have no job, caught in catch 22 cause they cannot sell. Thats why this charge is so unfair.

 

[Complainer]

Hold on, are you actually splitting hairs over the distinction between 990,459 and 1 million , or am I missing something?

Yeah, but don't be too hard on him. He missed the figure for the number of waivers, which brought it over the million.

However where I believe the govt is lying is in their claim that their are only 1.6 million liable households. Census last year had over 2 million households in Ireland. At most only 250,000 of these households would be exempt.

Fascinating - and your source for the 250k figure is?

So you think that the Household Charge is a progressive tax instrument. We fundamentally disagree.

Actually, you're right. The Household is NOT a progressive tax instrument. When it moves on to be a property tax in proportion to the value or size of the property, then it will be a progressive tax instrument. So give it a year or two.

I didnt pay, I dont agree with it, and to be totally honest, I really havent got the money. I never got a letter, and dont really care if I do. I dont want to be breaking the law, but my position is, if I had known when I initially bought my house that I would have to pay a property tax every year on it, I would probably not have bought at all. This tax will be every year for the rest of my life, long after the (NEGATIVE EQUITY AT THE MOMENT) mortgage is finished, and I will be struggling to pay it out of OAP.

I was worried when I saw the reports of 2nd letters and threats of legal action - Ive never even had so much as a speeding fine in my life - and I think it is deplorable that I am now choosing to break the law, rather than pay. I know I will be frightened and feel bullied if I do get a letter, but I will on principle stick to my decision not to pay. I live in an estate with over 100 houses in it, and only 2 houses that I know of have paid. I dont believe the compliance figures the government is spilling out to us either - they just dont add up

Honestly, who are you trying to kid. This wouldn't have affected your decision to buy a house. Unless you had some kind of written guarantee from future governments yet to be created, you'd have done what everyone else does - bought the best house you can afford and then do everything you can to hold onto it.

It's impossible to know compliance rates in any estate.

Dead right.

protocol you may own your house but I am mortgaged up to my eyes.

I stupidly didn't sell my house as the market was plummeting, with no movement in the market. Silly me.
I felt I had no choice but to rent and become a landlord. We are not all there by choice.
The crystal ball was broken that week.

I have paid PAYE since 16
Tax on income from property
NPPR again I feel silly for doing this now.
I have never had the benefit of a tax amnesty.

Easy for those with plenty to pontificate.

We will pay a levy to pay the Quinn debacle
The social charge willl probably never go away.
We are getting less for PRSI.

I am getting tired of assuming the position.

It's not those with plenty who are pontificating Frank. It is those who are worried about how they'll keep a car on the road when petrol hits €2, and how they'll keep the house warm when gas goes up correspondingly. You don't have a monopoly on money worries.

 

[netz]

Honestly, who are you trying to kid. This wouldn't have affected your decision to buy a house. Unless you had some kind of written guarantee from future governments yet to be created, you'd have done what everyone else does - bought the best house you can afford and then do everything you can to hold onto it.

Eh not trying to "kid" anyone. We wouldn't have bought it. We were renting our house from the council and they gave us the opportunity to purchase. Simple as that. Same house, expect now it's mortgaged to Bank of Scotland instead of rented by the council. And liable for property tax where as if we stayed renting it would not be.

 

[truthseeker]

Honestly, who are you trying to kid. This wouldn't have affected your decision to buy a house. Unless you had some kind of written guarantee from future governments yet to be created, you'd have done what everyone else does - bought the best house you can afford and then do everything you can to hold onto it.

Totally would have affected my decision to buy also. Not the 100 HC but the notion of future property taxes of a much larger sum. We have never had property taxes in this country - why would I or anyone else have expected them? Our current leader was pontificating that "Any tax on a persons home is immoral, unjust and unfair". It simply wasnt on my radar to consider it.

 

[truthseeker]

What makes you think that the 1,000,000 people who HAVE paid their tax will stand by and let others get away with it?

Hahahahaha! What are they going to do about it exactly? Maybe theyll sit by instead of stand by.

 

[Protocol]

pay the full mortgage. And we stupidly allowed ourselves a 30 year mortgage - paying untill we are 75 years old - if we live that long. And at that stage the 100 household charge will have grown into approx. €1500 a year in property and water tax - combined with mortgage payments out of OAP??? We know it is our own fault, we like many others were carried away on that cloud of reckless lending by the banks - I was on SW when we got a huge mortgage, and we didnt lie about our circumstances either - they gave us the amount we stupidly asked for, and offered us more which we had the sense to refuse. We live in an ordinary house, probably worth half what we paid for it, so please dont judge us for being struggling home owners, or should I rephrase that to "mortgage holders". And like I said, if I knew 6 years ago that I would be hit for a property/water tax, which could possibly hit the €1500 region - every year for the length of time we stay as owners, there is no way on earth we would have ever considered buying our own home.

I sympathise with you.

Mortgages beyond 25years should have been banned, as well as mortgages beyond 80-85% LTV. This has still not happened.

This would have prevented excessive borrowing, and kept house prices low.

Loose lending criteria has hurt both banks and borrowers.

I feel the eventual property tax will be more like 500pa, and maybe 250pa for water. I don't believe it will be 1500pa.

 

[monore]

I personally think there should be a sticker to put in your front window when you have paid the charge (or have a waiver) so it is easy to spot the houses that haven't and target them.

You're getting your ideas from the Nazi persecution of the Jews in 1930's Germany. You believe turning resentful Household Charge payers against their neighbours in order to defend Big Phils Final Solution is possible and practical.

 

[elcato]

You're getting your ideas from the Nazi persecution of the Jews in 1930's Germany.

Yawn. Godwin's law. thread closed.