T McGibney
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How can they do that when a significant minority of several hundred thousand people have already for decades been paying water charges on State-promoted group water schemes?
Another General Election
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Because its a farce, no government can be formed until FF and FG sit down and decide what they are doing
I don't think the last government were strong on anything. Anytime they had to make a decision that wasn't Troika directed it was a laughing stock.
It's quite clear that the coalition benefitted from an extremely benign global set of economic circumstances, and the best that can be said was that on economic front they adopted the 'do no harm' hippocratic oath.
Law and Order, Health, Housing, they did not do a good job on any of those big issues.
When was the last time any government in this state showed competence in managing the Health service?
Looking at the election promises made in 2002 and 2007 by FG & Labour, I have absolutely zero confidence they wouldn't have led the economy to the same disaster as FF.
I have absolutely zero confidence that when the Troika came to town, they wouldn't have folded exactly as FF folded and left taxpayers carrying an immoral and economically unsound deal.
It's my right as a voter to look at the last 5 years, to look at the debacle that was Irish Water, and say no, this is not something that I can give tacit sanction to by rewarding a party responsible for that with a vote. I don't think we can let a party get away scot free with that kind of conduct. There has to be payback at the voting booth because otherwise it's not entirely clear how I express my displeasure in a democratic system? In that regard, it is a fundamental issue.
The alternative would have to be a hell of a lot worse than FF for me to re-vote FG or even just to abstain.
It's quite clear that the coalition benefitted from an extremely benign global set of economic circumstances, and the best that can be said was that on economic front they adopted the 'do no harm' hippocratic oath.
Law and Order, Health, Housing, they did not do a good job on any of those big issues.
When was the last time any government in this state showed competence in managing the Health service?
Looking at the election promises made in 2002 and 2007 by FG & Labour, I have absolutely zero confidence they wouldn't have led the economy to the same disaster as FF.
I have absolutely zero confidence that when the Troika came to town, they wouldn't have folded exactly as FF folded and left taxpayers carrying an immoral and economically unsound deal.
It's my right as a voter to look at the last 5 years, to look at the debacle that was Irish Water, and say no, this is not something that I can give tacit sanction to by rewarding a party responsible for that with a vote. I don't think we can let a party get away scot free with that kind of conduct. There has to be payback at the voting booth because otherwise it's not entirely clear how I express my displeasure in a democratic system? In that regard, it is a fundamental issue.
The alternative would have to be a hell of a lot worse than FF for me to re-vote FG or even just to abstain.
There was no Lenin vs Trotsky "stuff". Lenin was the political leader, Trotsky was his military commander.
The "vs stuff" was Stalin vs Trotsky after Lenin had died.
They represented deeply different visions of how a society should be organised. Stalin believed in top-down state control of the economy and the political system. Trotsky believed in bottom-up control of the economy and politics by the workers.
AAA/PBP see themselves as Trotskyists, personally I think they are closet Stalinists. That is they favour bottom-up control while they are on the bottom, but if they ever got into power they would quickly want to control everything themselves.
I guess the same way FF were promising to handle it through the DAIL in their election manifesto?
Just instead of FF and FG having a fight over it, they consult the people on it without having another general election - which doesn't seem to be the best way to resolve an issue like this if it's the only thing separating two almost equal parties in terms of seats.
So Wallace/Daly/Collins are Stalinists
I don't get all that Marxists/Lenninist etc crap. It's all Russian to me and this is Ireland. We're different
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-1.
This opinion is not supported by the actual facts or the commentary of the majority of senior economists. The mantra that the economic recovery over the last few years was incidental to Government action and based on the "rising tide lifting all ships" philosophy is incorrect. This rising tide should also have benefitted the economies of Spain Portugal Greece etc but Ireland's pace of recovery far surpassed other EU countries and this was due to specific government actions.
Yes FG/Labour Government were arrogant and tended to largely ignore public sentiment and opinion but despite some large gaffes (IW being a significant one) they did implement some good policies from which we all benefitted. Personally I find it very difficult to understand why IW has become such a key issue when there are so many more issues in the country that need addressing that affect our Citizens a thousand times more severely than who pays for water ever will. Having said that I accept that the issue needs to be dealt with in order to focus politicians on the more pressing matters and FF/FG etc etc should compromise on whatever deal that needs to be made in order to move IW completely off the priority agenda. MM has hoisted himself on the petard of IW and by calling this a red line issue in the formation of a new Government he will surely be seen as merely pandering to public opinion on the topic as FF are likely to climb on any bandwagon that can generate extra seats.
What is the point in having a new election when the most likely outcome is that FF/FG will be faced with the same choices at the end of it? Do FF see an opportunity to gain traction on FG and emerge as the largest of the 2 parties following a new election? Will FG then assume the FF role and play the same games in any subsequent coalition talks? Politics, politics, politics. That's what it's all about with no focus on the effects of all of this non-action on the economy or the homelessness or hospital waiting lists. Why not send an invite to Donald Trump to come over here and take over as Taoiseach? We need someone with leadership ability and I certainly don't see it in any of the current lot.
thedaddyman
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With respect, I didn't call IW a fundamental issue, I said there was a fundamental difference between the parties on the issue itself. For what it's worth, and speaking as a farmers son where we paid for water indirectly all of our lives to the ESB, driller, plumber etc, I agree with you. IW is a townie issue, not an issue for the bulk of Ireland as the performance of the AAA/BPB outside of the 3 major cities showed in the last election.
As for the current impasse, I do think there is a genuine fear within FF of a split if they go into a formal coalition with FG. FF has a modern history of splits, Independent FF and the PD's for example and there is a wing in FF which is closer politically to the Shinners then to the John Bruton "west Brit" element of FG. I think O'Cuiv & co will walk if there is a coalition.
As for those who say we should forget about Civil War Politics and the 2 parties should get together since it is 100 years more or less since the Civil War and it's all history. I look forward to seeing the same people down the pub in June shouting "come on En-gerrrr-land" when the football is on and that they will also be wishing Rangers best of luck following their promotion back to the Scottish Premiership. No I hear you say, people won't do that !! Why not I ask, if FF and FG can get into bed together. ? 800 years ...................
The recovery was due mainly to exogenous factors such as the soft euro and exceptionally low interest rates. Ireland is a small and very open economy with more exposure to the dollar and sterling than any of the other economies you mention. The other economies, Greece in particular, also faced structural problems that we did not face. The only things I associate with this government are people on trolleys, mortgage arrears crisis, the Irish Water debacle and homelessness. Just for the record I voted for FG in 2011.
They managed to make cuts to public pay and keep them in place without strikes and they managed to keep to the Troika program. What they didn't allow to happen is just as important as what they did. The two men in Finance did a good job.
At this stage its hard to see anything other than a re-run. Maybe possibly FG minority government with tacit FF support but wouldnt be that enthuased. If we go again have FG stolen the March in the blame game, didnt they put it on a plate for FF, who now look like the baddies?
Saw earlier "a FF voter didnt vote to keep FG in power" & other corollaries - I think it all depends. A lot of it is whose rhetoric you believe. I dont believe Ireland lurched to the left, the centre is split but we're still centrist. I think politicians should start to see FG & FF voters as people who dont want the lunatic fringe (SF, AAA et al). When we're back in the same place after the next election could everyone please give that theory a run rather than FF dont want FG. OMG that's loike soooo last century.
If its a re-run is there any chance FG could get rid of Inda??, or at least have him kept captive somewhere for 6 weeks, twould do them the world of good, ditto Gerry.
Saw earlier "a FF voter didnt vote to keep FG in power" & other corollaries - I think it all depends. A lot of it is whose rhetoric you believe. I dont believe Ireland lurched to the left, the centre is split but we're still centrist. I think politicians should start to see FG & FF voters as people who dont want the lunatic fringe (SF, AAA et al). When we're back in the same place after the next election could everyone please give that theory a run rather than FF dont want FG. OMG that's loike soooo last century
.If its a re-run is there any chance FG could get rid of Inda??, or at least have him kept captive somewhere for 6 weeks, twould do them the world of good, ditto Gerry.
The purpose of an election is form a Government. So it's simply not good enough for almost all the parties - FF, SF, AAA/PBP etc - to refuse to assist in forming a Government. The only way to get one's policies implemented is to be in Government. What's the point in seeking election if you have no intention of implementing (or trying to implement) any policies.
I can understand that SF are wedded to opposing everything and don't want to make any difficult decisions. They prefer to pander to their support base by pretending that everything would be perfect if only the "rich" would pay for everything.
FF on the other hand seem to be terrified of letting SF become the main opposition and are more concerned about FF than acting in the national interest. It seems FF want to be "in power" (perhaps by sort of supporting a minority Goverment) but also in opposition (by threatening to put the plug on the same minority Goverment at any stage in the future).
If we have to have an election, perhaps the electorate will make a more sensible decision next time. How many times to we have to vote to get a Government?
I can understand that SF are wedded to opposing everything and don't want to make any difficult decisions. They prefer to pander to their support base by pretending that everything would be perfect if only the "rich" would pay for everything.
FF on the other hand seem to be terrified of letting SF become the main opposition and are more concerned about FF than acting in the national interest. It seems FF want to be "in power" (perhaps by sort of supporting a minority Goverment) but also in opposition (by threatening to put the plug on the same minority Goverment at any stage in the future).
If we have to have an election, perhaps the electorate will make a more sensible decision next time. How many times to we have to vote to get a Government?
Just watched Simon Harris on 6 News there and I must say FG are coming across in a very arrogant manner. It has also been Enda Kenny's and his ministers MO and doesn't sit right with anyone. Now that the general public have told FG/Lab that they don't want them leading the country, FG are the only ones who have taken no heed of this and feel their so called historic offer to FF has to be taken up. FF were told by the electorate not to go into goverment with FG, so will FG support a minority FF goverment? The thing is, FF will support a FG minority goverment. Is Kenny the Humpty Dumpty in all of this? I think so and if FG were honest, they do too. He's probably a real nice person but whoever "manages" FG have made a mess of him and of the party. Take them out and we'll have a goverment. It's a pity Enda (or indeed Fionuala) doesn't see this and use his own gut instinct to lead the way. At this stage he's got nothing to lose
Is that really the purpose of an election? What we are really doing is electing public representatives.
After all, we don't just sack all opposition TDs the day after a Taoiseach is elected.
And we've had changes of government without elections (the change from FF-Labour to Rainbow Coalition in mid 1990s).
Representatives stood for election, on a platform and manifesto, seeking a mandate.
And when you stood for office and said, a vote for us is not a vote for coalition with X, people listened and voted on that basis.
What's the point of being in government if you have to jettison your manifesto and campaign promises?
I think it is in the long term national interests for elected representatives to stand by the promises they made seeking election. Anything else is seriously damaging to democracy.
Also, one can certainly argue the point that FF acting as a blocker to SF is more in the national interest than sorting out the next government ASAP.
I would rather see another election - and echoing your comments a more sensible outcome - than have politicians scramble for office without regard to their policies. And of course, I don't agree with a lot of the policies that are there. And there are several elected representatives who I would end up strangling if trapped in a lift with them.
But if people are going to elect people on those platforms then we have to hold the electorate and the elected representatives to that. Otherwise, we may as well just cast our votes at random.
Sophrosyne
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Yes we elect public representatives. But, under the constitution, they must elect a Taoiseach and must form a Government, which must act as a collective authority.
In theory, 'must' sounds very strong and I suppose the consequence of not doing that is standing again for election.
In theory, the caretaker government could stay in office for the duration of the next Dail while we wait interminably for them to take those steps. In practice, the President would dissolve the Dail if it's clear no Taoiseach will be elected.
I think Simon Harris is a smart cookie, but he & Leo might be seen as a bit arrogant together with Enda who, worse, doesnt seem to have any great basis for arrogance. On the other hand the like of Coveney seems a nice gent, as does Richard Bruton, Michael Noonan I like, Shatter was hard to warm to and so on. The arrogance of the likes of Collins & Dooley grates on me worse than FG. I'm not sure another election will give a fundamentally different result, so again I say should we look broader when interpreting the vote, next time at the polls its clear that pretty clear that anything goes in terms of the next government so I hope either a) parties dont start ruling stuff out in advance or b) that no-one believes them if they do. Is the next election just to "clear the air" of the assumed baggage of the electorate from round 1, and let FG & FF go in together after the next time.
thedaddyman
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Has anyone seen or heard from Enda?. Is it a deliberate policy of FG to keep him quiet in case he makes another faux pax or is it another example of Enda acting arrogantly and thinking he is above all of this?. He is still the Taoiseach and should be talking to the nation about what is going on, not wheeling out spokespeople. I got the impression from listening to FF last night that part of their problem is that they go into a meeting with Enda who says one thing, then Coveney and Leo come out and say something different. Who is actually running FG and is this politics and postioning within FG?
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