Another abortion referendum?

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, but I believe in the tight of the individual to choose and see no reason why my (male, not medically qualified and never in a position to be pregnant) views should prevent a woman's right to determine what is best for her health and well-being.
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Latrade, you are a man ! I cannot believe this. I was so convinced you were female. My own husband is very very upset about this story. He cannot believe it. He tried to calm me down last week, he knows that this kind of issue really really upsets me and wanted me to stop reading about it but this weekend he changed his mind, he said for some reason that he realises now that it's too important for me and other women. You see we were together the last time there was this issue and I was much younger than and he thought I was just going off on one and he was probably anti abortion in all circumstances and just let me be myself then and basically ignored me and my crazy ideas on abortion/divorce/contraceptions etc but now he has children and he's thinking what if it were my daughter in that hospital, at the mercy of the beliefs of a medical professional. He read about it properly on Saturday in the Daily Mail of all places and it's rarely I've seen him so upset. This time he is now pro choice, he actually said to me that really men shouldn't have any say in this but we discussed it and I said that's a cop out from a man. And that men need to understand what it is to be female and to have to carry a child and to have to face up to hard choices sometimes. But most of all that when there is a debate to say what your beliefs are instead of ignoring it or avoiding it to avoid conflict.

It is a shameful thing that has happened in Ireland. But more shameful is that in the last 20 years nobody has done anything about it. And each week we let terribly frightenend women make the cold hard trip to a foreign country to face that most gruesome of life's choices and we ignore it. We pretend it doesn't happen, sweep it under the carpet, we don't talk about it and the women don't talk about it. A minimum of 100,000 women, yes one hundred thousand Irish women, our mothers, sisters, cousins, daughters, aunts have gone in the last 20 years. In other words Irish people have only to look around them in their own families and there is someone who has made that trip that no one will discuss.
 

We have to go back to the beginning here. Abortion has no place in the constitition. We need a referendum to remove it and instead let the laws on abortion be made by the Oireachtas.

Legislation for X

This would not have saved Savita Halappanavar. Her health was at risk not her life, so even if there was legislation for the X case it would not have saved her.

Anti abortion versus pro choice

I am pro choice, I am not pro abortion, I have never ever met anyone pro abortion and I will not be labelled as pro abortion because I believe in a women's right to choose.

I will not dictate to any other women what she can or cannot do with her body in relation to this issue. I will not dictate to a rape victim, an incest victim, a women carrying a child with fetal defects, a women whose baby will die at term or a women whose choses for whatever reason to terminate the pregnancy. I will not judge her or condone her. I will accept her choice.

Equal right to life between mother and the child she is carrying

No this cannot be right, my life is more important. It's difficult but if we go down that route than the predictable result is what happened in Galway.

A doctors ethics

I do not accept that a medical professional can make a choice for me or a choice between me and the baby I am carrying. I want to have the right to know that as a women with a pregnancy I have the right to know the viewpoint of the doctor, where that view might impact me against my wishes.
 

That's funny 'cos the yanks only heard of the concept of a gay marriage a few months before we did.

There certainly was no visible lobby anywhere in the US for gay marriage back in the days when condom vending machines were illegal in Ireland.
 
Sinn Féin supports ... a woman's right to termination in the case of rape or incest.

Says the party that until quite recently employed an alleged sex abuser, wanted in Northern Ireland for allegedly abusing a four year old, despite its own leadership knowing the full details of the allegations against him.

Only one of many, according to this:
[broken link removed]
 
Says the party that until quite recently employed an alleged sex abuser,
[broken link removed]

What has this got to do with the debate on abortion. In any case abusers are in every party and indeed are all over the place.
 
What has this got to do with the debate on abortion. In any case abusers are in every party and indeed are all over the place.

A party that knowingly harboured an alleged abuser amongst its top ranks tells us that abortion is okay for rape and incest victims.
 
Legislation for X . . This would not have saved Savita Halappanavar. Her health was at risk not her life, so even if there was legislation for the X case it would not have saved her.
I agree fully with that, indeed I posted as much when this thread was reopened (#94). This is why the clamour to legislate for X based on this case is misplaced.
I am pro choice, I am not pro abortion, I have never ever met anyone pro abortion and I will not be labelled as pro abortion because I believe in a women's right to choose.
Uncomfortable as it may be, this is just semantics . . pro-choice/pro-abortion are one and the same. Attempts, in some quarters, to take ownership of the abortion issue notwithstanding, abortion is a societal issue. Irish maternity hospitals remain a safe place for both expectant mothers and their babies; the scaremongering to the contrary should stop.

IMHO many people are genuinely outraged regarding this case, others are more calculating as it serves their agenda (indeed some had prior knowledge that the story was to break and used that effectively). In any event, we need the facts of the case and therefore we will have to await the report(s) of the various investigations. In the interim, nothing will happen.
 
Irish maternity hospitals remain a safe place for both expectant mothers and their babies; the scaremongering to the contrary should stop.

Scaremongering? You claim it's an agenda and scaremongering that women are genuinely upset and concerned that the choice over whether their lives and health is at the whim of a doctor and ethics panel? I would prefer the scaremongering over condescending trivialisation of genuine heartfelt concern to suit a religious agenda.

But let's focus on one key aspect that is trotted out by the government and the church and people on this forum. I'm confused because first I'm told that legislation in the X Case wouldn't have prevented the death. Just on that, it's almost said with some sense of smugness (not you personally) as in "take that liberal baby murderers, even if we hadn't aggresively faught against legislation for 20 years, even if we hadn't set up Choose Life in the face of the ABC case, she would have still died!". I'm not entirely sure that does much for the morality of the argument being made.

Second, if it is indeed irrelevant to this case, then perhaps you can explain the relevance of the Maternity Mortality rate to the abortion discussion. I keep hearing this and I keep hearing how we compare to the UK, what with it's buy-one-get-one-free abortions in the supermarket. But while you were the most recent to use the statistic, perhaps you could explain its relevance.

I'll give my perspective first. According to the [broken link removed] there are 14 countries that have better maternity mortality rates than Ireland.

Of those, 10 allow abortions on request and 3 for health and other circumstances (which is where the UK would fit in). So every single country that is better at looking after pregnant women allows abortion. Of those the vast majority have 70% have the most liberal abortion laws. So how come the church and the government only mention the UK?

And if this really is a relevant statistic, surely the evidence suggest that liberalisation of abortion laws saves more lives, if we are to use the "rationality" of the church by using this statistic.

Look at it this way, for example, one of the few countries with a complete ban on abortion, the Dominican Republic has a MM of 150.00/100K, Estonia (abortion on request) is 2.00/100K. Ahhh, but, but, but, you see, that's not fair, you're not comparing, no, but, but, but.... Do. You. See. How. Irrelevant. And. Unrealted. To. Abortion. This. Statistic. Is?

Perhaps we can stop using this, albeit impressive, Ireland is safe stat as it is meaningless. For one it doesn’t take into account the hundres of thousands of women who travel to the UK for abortions. That's another strike against promulgating this tripe. Second, the UK's and the USA's higer rates again have nothing to do with abortions, it is mostly to do with poverty and in particular that the maternal moratlity is usually skewed towards poor immigrants. In the USA's case, there are issues with affording prenatal care for immigrants (largely illegal). And in the UK, it tends to not get mentioned for fear of racism accusations, but again the maternity mortality higher rates are from women from poor areas, tend to be ethnic minority, tend to have not partaken in vaccination programmes, etc, etc, etc, and not at all related to abortion.

Where abortion does feature, "unsafe abortions" (note it is clearly stated "unsafe" not "abortion") is in those developing countries where, in some cases (like the Domincan Republic) where abortion is illegal, so women get unsafe abortions, or where overall medical care is not to the high, hygienic standards we expect and have grown accustomed to.

So, from my perspective, the actual data says a lot, but if we apply the current pro-life logic to it, then the data actually supports abortion in order to save more lives. But I'm willing to hear your views on this as I assume that as you keep quoting the statement, you've also had a look at the data.


So, to conclude. Everyone who is pro-choice needs to get their facts straight and wait for evidence before making any judgement. I agree. But pro-lifers can:

1. Judge people without any evidence by claiming that "others are more calculating as it serves their agenda"
2. Judge women as scaremongering despite evidence that they are genuinely concerned.
3. Twist a statistic that actually does not support their argument to pretend it does.

What's the point in getting facts when pro-life has demonstrated that it will just twist and turn and wriggle and resort to pretty low and dispicable name-calling in order to keep its rapidly diminishing argument relevant? What good will facts serve when those pro-life commentators will just lie?
 
A party that knowingly harboured an alleged abuser amongst its top ranks tells us that abortion is okay for rape and incest victims.

Well I guess then the Catholic church which is quite notorious in it's harbouring of abusers had better not speak on abortion either. Indeed, they are notorius in their treatment of pregnant women in the Magdelene laundries. And will we talk about their treatment of children born as a result of rape and incest that ended up in their industrial schools.

They have been unusually silent on this issue, particularly when they've spent centuries trying to control women's bodies.
 

Firstly, you're trying to have it both ways here. You say the Catholic church "had better not speak on abortion" yet you complain "They have been unusually silent on this issue".

As regards the Catholic Church, if they ever trot out abortion as a 'solution' for rape or incest victims, I will waste no time in giving them both barrels. They haven't done so, so we're back to Sinn Fein, the party that harbours rapists but will provide abortions to their victims.
 

Are you really saying the CC is ok to comment on abortion and pregnancy from rape and incest (while harbouring and facilitating rapists) because at least it is consistent, i.e. even if you're raped we don't support abortion and instead would confine you to an institution with institutionalised abuse, torture and humiliation?

Wow.
 

Wow indeed.

What sort of loaded question is that?

Where in this thread have I defended the Catholic Church's right to speak on anything?

Go attack some other strawman, you won't get much change here.
 
Wow indeed.

What sort of loaded question is that?

Where in this thread have I defended the Catholic Church's right to speak on anything?

Go attack some other strawman, you won't get much change here.

Yup completely loaded and a complete strawman done because it is the exact same as when you asked the loaded question about SF.
 
The relevance of Ireland's the Maternity Mortality Rate in this debate is that it debunks the notion that Irish maternity hospitals are unsafe because of our prohibition on abortion.

Whatever about buy-one-get-one-free, although the UK introduced limited abortion in 1967, this has morphed into abortion-on-demand (up to term for minor defects) with a sizable abortion industry conducting 200,000 abortions every year (over 500 per day).
 
Yup completely loaded and a complete strawman done because it is the exact same as when you asked the loaded question about SF.

Exact same? No.

The Catholic Church, harbourer of rapists and abusers, have not called for abortion for victims of rape and abuse.

Sinn Fein, harbourer of rapists and abusers, have called for abortion for victims of rape and abuse.
 

All 14, Fourteen, States who are better than Ireland have legalised abortion. 10 of those have more liberal abortion laws than the UK. Again, how is it relevant when clearly the actual statistics show no link other than to show that abortion improves Maternity Mortality?

The reason women feel unsafe is that, and again confirmed by actual doctors who work in the area, in the rare event that their health is at risk that they do not have the right to choose an abortion to prevent any further health concerns because the current quasi-legal status is not clear nor strong enough in their favour as a human being.

Ireland has a very good record, why can't it be better? Most maternity mortality in the Western World is related to infection and infection control, yes this is a rare occurrence, but if the lack of clear legislation prevents a rapid decision, can we actually say they are safe if those circumstances repeat themselves?
 
Exact same? No.

The Catholic Church, harbourer of rapists and abusers, have not called for abortion for victims of rape and abuse.

Sinn Fein, harbourer of rapists and abusers, have called for abortion for victims of rape and abuse.

I countered a loaded question with another loaded question. You're right it isn't exactly the same, because in the case of the Church we have a multitude of victims of abuse, yet for SF we've the one case that we know of. So on a scaling view it is massively different. But what are you trying to achieve by labouring this point?

I still fail to see how your point on SF is relevant, I don't get what point or win you're trying to score by picking out one sentence from a larger point. And forgive me, but it does give the impression that you are saying the Church have more right to comment because they are consistent. If your message is that neither are completely free to comment without some element of hypocrasy then I agree 100%.

Neither party can take any moral highground, but welcoming one political party to stop merely complaining and to take action is not the same as supporting the whole party.
 

Where did I say the Catholic Church have more right to comment? Everyone and anyone is free to comment, including Sinn Fein and the Catholic Church.

However it is valid for me to criticise or question a position that is (or seems) hypocritical, as I did in relation to Sinn Fein.

And it is entirely valid for me to 'labour the point' when whataboutery is used in an attempt to misrepresent and misconstrue the point I made.
 
Again, it's only relevant because it debunks a falsehood. One would have to perhaps misinterpret the stats to find that abortion improves MMR.

Looking at your link India, for example, had a MMR 33 times that of Ireland in 2010. The MMR figure is in single figures per 100,000 for the best 30 or so countries. All 14? - 3 seem to be better by virtue of reverse alphabetical order no less - There is far too small a variance in any given year (2010 in this case) to suggest that abortion makes one safer relative to another.
 
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