Another abortion referendum?

[orka]

Sorry this is a risible notion.

There is a large and vocal lobby in the US that is supports the principle of judicial execution as a punishment for serious crimes. This lobby is generally, and accurately, described as being "pro-death
penalty".

However this description does not denote or imply that its supporters wish for every human being to be executed "leading to the end of humanity as we know it."

So, its quite reasonable to describe a position in favour of abortions as being "pro-abortion".

This is equally risible. Pro-death penalty people actively want the death to take place. Pro-choice people would be quite happy if there was no need for a single abortion – all pregnancies were planned and wanted, nobody got pregnant from being raped, no mothers or foetuses got sick etc.

Unfortunately life is not perfect. Pro-choice people want, strangely enough, choice. If a 16 year girl is pregnant after being raped and wants to keep the baby, pro-choice people are not going to be marching in the streets screeching at her to abort the baby (which they presumably would if they were ‘pro-abortion’) – they are not pro-abortion but pro-choice (with one of the choices being abortion). Even in a case similar to this week, if the mother wanted to keep going with the pregnancy until the heartbeat stopped in spite of increased infection risk, that is her choice – she could be strongly advised not to risk her health and life, but at the end of the day, it should be her choice.

I’m pro-choice but I’m not pro-abortion. I would prefer if there was no need for abortions but I’m glad they are available when necessary. The ‘when necessary’ part is the difficult bit. I would also hope there could be some sort of scaled menu of options in any future referendum.

 

[T McGibney]

Sorry, I think you're playing with semantics here. Savita's need for treatment to save her life was not a choice but a necessity.

I haven't heard any "anti abortion" commentator say this week that she shouldn't have received the necessary treatment.

 

[truthseeker]

You would also have to factor in the right to a fathers say whether or not an abortion would take place.

Im not sure how this could be done in the kind of menu I suggested, do you have any thoughts on this?

I cant see this being relevant in all cases such as, a womans life being in danger, a woman wanting an abortion due to rape, but certainly it is relevant in some cases.

Do you know how any other countries handle this MrMan?

 

[truthseeker]

I did that too days ago. I haven't had a single reply. I accept they may well have had a lot of emails, but I think the silence is sad.

Ive had 3 replies, one from Sinn Fein and two from Labour. Both reasonably stock responses promising (in the case of Sinn Fein) to continue to press government to legislate and from Labour assurances that they will not be the 7th government to fail to legislate on this.

 

[Caveat]

At least it's just the liberals who are capitalising and rushing to judgement: seen outside usual pro-life GPO spot (picture)

I never thought I'd say this, but this actually makes me ashamed and embarrassed to be Irish.

 

[Betsy Og]

I never thought I'd say this, but this actually makes me ashamed and embarrassed to be Irish.

Not wanting to go off topic, but why do we worry so much about how it makes us look?, the issue is serious on its only merits for us, I dont particularly give a hang about what the world thinks.

Mr. Myers doing his usual rubbing it into us - just because there are problems shouldnt mean national shame at every turn. I'm annoyed with our politicians and our bankers, but I dont think we, or the nation as a whole, needs to don sackcloth and ashes - awful things happen in all countries, I dont know that other nations rush to collective shame like we do?

 

[Firefly]

At least it's just the liberals who are capitalising and rushing to judgement: seen outside usual pro-life GPO spot (picture)

That's hillarious If there is a God and there is a Satan, then surely God could just nip down and say "Hey Satan buddy, gimme back me smallee".

 

[orka]

Sorry, I think you're playing with semantics here. Savita's need for treatment to save her life was not a choice but a necessity.

In hindsight it was a necessity – but for the first few days while there was still a heartbeat, there was no indication that she was at risk of death – hence she did not qualify for a termination (do you really think the doctors knew her life was at risk and did nothing to save her? that her doctor-friend who visited her every day wouldn’t have raised a stink if he saw she was dying and nothing was being done?). Lots of women have waited for the heartbeat to stop and then had the foetus removed and no harm came to them. For women with a much-wanted pregnancy, it can be difficult to let go of the hope that the pregnancy might survive – so faced with waiting for nature to stop the heartbeat or terminating it medically, I can understand why some women would choose to wait. Savita’s outcome was very unusual – most women are fine with the waiting approach. But they should have the choice once the pregnancy is no longer viable.

I haven't heard any "anti abortion" commentator say this week that she shouldn't have received the necessary treatment.

That’s what the anti-abortion commentators are hiding behind – that she should have got necessary treatment to save her life so therefore it’s not the law’s fault but the doctor’s. But as above, her life was not at enough risk to qualify for a termination before it was too late.

The only thing that could have saved her was the termination that she asked for - are the anti-abortion commentators you refer to okay with the termination of a non-viable (but still live) pregnancy at the mother's request when her life is not in danger at that time but there's a very small risk that her life could be in danger if the pregnancy continues?

 

[Firefly]

Ive had 3 replies, one from Sinn Fein and two from Labour. Both reasonably stock responses promising (in the case of Sinn Fein) to continue to press government to legislate and from Labour assurances that they will not be the 7th government to fail to legislate on this.

Anyone know what Sinn Fein's position on abortion is? (Pro-death? )

 

[truthseeker]

Anyone know what Sinn Fein's position on abortion is? (Pro-death? )

Heres what was said in the email:

Sinn Féin supports legislation to provide for the right to termination in the case of a threat to the life of the woman, including through suicide, as laid down in the X Case.

To this end we supported the recent Medical Treatment Bill put forward by Clare Daly TD to introduce an extremely limited legal framework for termination in these cases. We also support a woman's right to termination in the case of rape or incest.

Sinn Féin are shocked and appalled at the recent death of Ms. Savita Halappanavar.

 

[Caveat]

Not wanting to go off topic, but why do we worry so much about how it makes us look?

Personally, I'd prefer if the country was portrayed as something half resembling a 21st century modern society.

It has taken us long enough to (mostly successfully) shake off the image of a superstitious, ultra conservative and disorganised backwater and this certainly doesn't help.

I think most people, regardless of nationality, would prefer that their country was viewed in a more positive light would they not?

 

[MrMan]

Im not sure how this could be done in the kind of menu I suggested, do you have any thoughts on this?

I cant see this being relevant in all cases such as, a womans life being in danger, a woman wanting an abortion due to rape, but certainly it is relevant in some cases.

Do you know how any other countries handle this MrMan?

I would have thought that it would be an important aspect to your first point' abortion on demand', I agree and don't see how anyone could disagree that it has no relevance in the case of risk to mother, or rape.

I don't know much about it in general, but I feel that if we are going to head towards referendum, then we need to ensure that side issues like the rights of the father are not used to oppose the whole matter. I think that if it was kept to just 'in cases of risk to mother and rape' then it would have a great chance of being passed.

 

[truthseeker]

Personally, I'd prefer if the country was portrayed as something half resembling a 21st century modern society.

I remember when I was a young lassie and I went off to see Amerikay on my J1 visa and being thoroughly shocked at what people abroad thought of Ireland. When I confirmed to them that we had no abortion, no divorce (then), that sale of condoms through a vending machine in my college had resulted in the arrest of the head of the students union and gay marriage wasnt even a concept Id heard of, they laughed long and loud and offered me ways to get a green card to get out of such a repressive country for good - oh how I wish Id taken them up on it!!!

Nearly 20 years on and no one seems to mind condoms being sold anywhere, divorce is allowed after a period of sufferance of 4 years, gay people still cant get married and abortion is still as contentious as it ever was. So, while we may partially resemble a modern 21st century society, we are a long way from catching up with other first world countries.

 

[truthseeker]

I think that if it was kept to just 'in cases of risk to mother and rape' then it would have a great chance of being passed.

Thats why Id like to see a menu of choices to actually get a picture of what the electorate as a whole wants. I agree that a middle road has the greatest chance of being passed.

 

[Latrade]

Ive had 3 replies, one from Sinn Fein and two from Labour. Both reasonably stock responses promising (in the case of Sinn Fein) to continue to press government to legislate and from Labour assurances that they will not be the 7th government to fail to legislate on this.

I can understand some who haven't replied: Minister for health and fellow FG, I think it's sad, but understand. But Clare Daley hasn't responded or even acknowledged the email. I'll admit I want the stock response like SF because I want to reply that as a TD who is so active in this why not have the bravery to introduce a bill? Why wait for the government if you believe in it so strongly?

 

[truthseeker]

I can understand some who haven't replied: Minister for health and fellow FG, I think it's sad, but understand. But Clare Daley hasn't responded or even acknowledged the email. I'll admit I want the stock response like SF because I want to reply that as a TD who is so active in this why not have the bravery to introduce a bill? Why wait for the government if you believe in it so strongly?

Did you email personally or through an online form? Any chance they didnt go through (if it was an online form for example).

Bit surprised at NO response from any!

 

[MrMan]

I would also agree that I am sick of hearing all this guff about being embarrassed to be Irish etc, can anyone point out a country from which we should model ourselves on?

 

[Caveat]

I would also agree that I am sick of hearing all this guff about being embarrassed to be Irish etc, can anyone point out a country from which we should model ourselves on?

Of course not. What kind of a question is that?

 

[MrMan]

An exasperated one

 

[Firefly]

Sin Fein's quote "We also support a woman's right to termination in the case of rape or incest"

I can only imagine the pain and suffering that the woman in question my have gone through and will continue to go through. Going ahead with an abortion is yet another extremely stressful thing to have to consider and if the abortion is carried out then, this woman will have to think about this decision for the rest of her days. Having said all that...it's not the child's fault either, yet they are the ones paying the ultimate price. I'm not saying that I am against abortions in the case of rape/incest but just that it's such a difficult area...