After Retirement

[Truffade]

Nothing Personal my you-know-what! - Right! Let's line up everybody over 55 who owns his/her home and issue them with the following:-
1. You own your home which is too big for you, according to us, You have no say whatsoever and we're turfing you out to make way for somebody who doesn't own his/her own home.
2. You can go and live in a smaller home of our decision where you should be delighted in making way for the new crop of upwardly mobile individuals.
3. If you decided not to vacate, your property tax will increase by 500%.
4. Please Mr Leper, no arguments, just relax and get out now!

I didn't qualify for a grant for our first home, applying for local authority housing was out of the question and also the same for a local authority loan, our bank kept us on 12 months bridging loan before the mortgage was made available to us thereby increasing our repayments by one year, and then we had to contend with interest rates of up to 19.75%, Mrs Lep was obliged to give up work on marriage (Public Service Decree), our offspring didn't qualify for 3rd Level Grants because of my income, I'm still awaiting my 2nd Covid AZ Vaccine while everybody I know (younger and older than me) is fully vaccinated for several weeks. You see, these people would be moaning to their elected representatives if they weren't winning at bingo. Why should I complain about being turfed out of the home we paid dearly for?

I think you just illustrated why our TDs are so scared of annoying the older voter!

No-one is suggesting 'turfing you out'. You inferred that all by yourself.

 

[Early Riser]

You have no say whatsoever and we're turfing you out

Noone is turfing anyone out. But public policy should be about public good. I don't think it helps to personalise this too much and, anyway, I don't know where you live or your circumstances. (I also don't think victimhood is helpful - you are being singled out to wait for the second vaccine because you don't count in some way? Really?). I would bet though that your home has increased in value (and your nominal wealth has increased) at a level multiple to that of any cost-of-living index since the time you first purchased it. This has been due to reasons way outside of your control, or your good efforts, so no use trying to take all of the credit for your sacrifices (which every generation makes in its own way. And by the way, you forgot to mention the mortgage interest relief!).

But you would not be thrown out. A rise in LPT all around (not just on the Leper household or on the over 60s, etc) would in my opinion, encourage a better use of the housing stock. If you are paying €600 and it rose to €6000 then you and Mrs. Leper are well capable of making a rational choice on whether to stay or move to somewhere with a lower rating (or attaching the charge to the house if you are unable to pay). Out of say every 1000 Leper households if 500 decided to move this would result in a greatly increase supply of family homes in a location desired by, and suitable for, the active workforce (and assuming this applies to your location). If this results in a decrease in the numbers commuting long distances so much the better. Better to tax in this way than simply to lump on income tax. Maybe reduce it instead. (Anyway, I bet you would be much more contented in lovely Manorhamilton anyway - you just needed the nudge)

But as mentioned by another poster, it is very unlikely to happen. Everyone likes to to moan about services, planning, housing, traffic, etc etc. but few see themselves being involved in the problem never mind the solution. And damn any politician who suggests otherwise.

 

[Odea]

Looking at some of the smaller houses coming on the market in the area where I live and they are in worse condition than my own. There are practically nil new houses coming on the market where I live. In fact some of the bigger houses are being bought, demolished and apartments built on the site.

I live in a 5 bed detached. I would happily move to a 3 bed detached or even a 3 bed semi. However I would need to spend substantial sums of money to upgrade the 3 bed in the area where I live, as well as stamp duty buying it. Sure I might as well stay where I am and spend this money on my own house.

The only thing that is in the back of my mind is if the government would allow me sell my home now and gift some of the equity proceeds to my children tax free. This would be in addition to the inheritance threshold of €335k that they would get.

The seven-year rule – why it matters when making financial gifts

In this article, the experts at Evelyn Partners explain what the seven-rule is and how it could reduce your Inheritance Tax bill

www.tilney.co.uk

 

[Gordon Gekko]

I don’t think incentives are required.

There’s already a big incentive…you can realise gains tax-free and buy a new place with the money left over.

The problem, as Sarenco and others highlighted, is a lack of suitable properties to downsize into and the fact that many people just don’t want to downsize regardless. It’s their home, in many cases somewhere they’ve spend decades, and moving home is a pain in the proverbial.

There have been decent examples where supply of suitable properties, albeit sometimes at the higher end. Marianella in Rathgar attracted a lot of downsizers, albeit people downsizing from €1-2m homes into €750k apartments probably didn’t excite the Shinners.

 

[kinnjohn]

I think you just illustrated why our TDs are so scared of annoying the older voter!

No-one is suggesting 'turfing you out'. You inferred that all by yourself.

I am enjoying my retirement it was well earned when I started out working income tax was around twice as high as it is today I retired,
Prsi was around 18.5% of payroll there was no tax relief on contributions,
The only good thing back then if you were out of work you got around 75% of your wages tapering off over 15 months, same as we have in most EU Countries to this Day,

Now who Is scared of who and why,



FF FG and Labour have not forgotten the lesson on how the annoyed young and not so young workers stood up to them and put them in their place back in the 1980s, over 700000 came out on one day alone to protest at not being listened to, (retired and retirees Of today)

They are still scared of annoying the 1980s generation,

it has nothing got to do with TDs being scared of annoying the older voter,

, TDs know that the 1980 generation know how to vote and through no fault of their own they are now older and as wise as they were back in the 1980s fool me once shame on TDs fool me twice shame on me comes to mind,

Google Tax Payers March 1980 and have a good read when you get a chance and enjoy,

I was not part of the 700000 who marched that day but the TDs of today will not take a chance of finding out the hard way who they were,

TDs know people who were young in the 1980s are friendly when they call to their door but they have a fierce bite if treated unfairly,

Income tax on PAYE workers today is only half of what it was back in the 1980s, there was little or no tax collected from any other sector

prsi on self-employed only came in in 1988 for the first time TDs helped to fill in the forms for non-contributory pensions I think you will figure out the outcome yourself,
Hope the above helps understand why TDs don't want to do anything to remind the people who paid their wages and provided the money for the parish pump gravy train back in the 1980s,

 

[Itchy]

The only thing that is in the back of my mind is if the government would allow me sell my home now and gift some of the equity proceeds to my children tax free. This would be in addition to the inheritance threshold

I think that would be a bad idea with some unintended consequences. Could put awful pressure on some elderly parents.

 

[misemoi]

Right now the government is incentivising FTB to buy new builds with the Help to Buy. It wasn't that long ago that I was a FTB but I still would have gone for a second hand house in a mature estate regardless. Same with any rightsizing incentive. If it suits me I will gladly take it but I won't if it doesn't. Nobody is obliged to downsize. But the government might make it attractive enough to sway some folk who were considering it.

 

[2bmortgagefree]

Intuitively, it is something that makes sense.

1. We form family units, we have children - we live in a big house
2. Those children grow up, they leave the big house the big house now only has two people living in it.
3. Those children start having children themselves, they need a big house - but many of the existing stock of big houses are occupied by their parent's generation

From a resourcing perspective, it is highly inefficient to have small older family units (of 1 or 2 people) living in these big houses while younger families are searching for suitable housing themselves.
The trick (which our government appears to have missed) would appear to be a strategy that would encourage older people to sell their big houses (if they want to!) and downsize to suitable smaller units that are optimised for older people.

If we could solve this one, it would free up a lot of family houses for actual families that need them - and house older people in units suitable to their needs.

I can't see our government ever tackling this but it does seem to me to be one of the great unspoken debates in our housing crisis...I wonder what they do in other countries?

I think government could look at this and try to make it easier in terms of planning to build an annex on to houses whereby you could have multi generational family units. Things like square footage exemptions, development levies exemptions would help free up properties. It could also mean older people don't have to go to nursing homes as they have family nearby to care for them.

Another suggestion is to look at allowing the proceeds of sale of family homes be exempt from inheritance tax threshold for a period of 3 to 5 years therefore increasing supply.

I believe in carrot rather than stick approach to this. It's horrible to see empty houses lying idle to pay care home fees.

 

[kinnjohn]

Noone is turfing anyone out. But public policy should be about public good.

. If you are paying €600 and it rose to €6000 then you and Mrs. Leper are well capable of making a rational choice on whether to stay or move to somewhere with a lower rating (or attaching the charge to the house if you are unable to pay). Out of say every 1000 Leper households if 500 decided to move this would result in a greatly increase supply of family homes in a location desired by, and suitable for, the active workforce (and assuming this applies to your location). If this results in a decrease in the numbers commuting long distances so much the better. Better to tax in this way than simply to lump on income tax. Maybe reduce it instead. (Anyway, I bet you would be much more contented in lovely Manorhamilton anyway - you just needed the nudge)

But as mentioned by another poster, it is very unlikely to happen. Everyone likes to to moan about services, planning, housing, traffic, etc etc. but few see themselves being involved in the problem never mind the solution. And damn any politicwho suggests otherwise.

How about 66% benefit in kind tax on the employer contributions section of all pensions including lump sum at drawdown and reinvest it in building extra homes, the real problem is a shortage of new builds

we could try out the benefit in kind on the pensions of those who suggested increasingLPT,

 

[Early Riser]

How about 66% benefit in kind tax on the employer contributions section of all pensions including lump sum at drawdown and reinvest it in building extra homes, the real problem is a shortage of new builds

we could try out the benefit in kind on the pensions of those who suggesting increasingLPT,

Is a red herring the correct term for this? And is the real problem the shortage of new builds - or is there considerably more to it than that? What about best use of existing housing stock? What about suitability of housing to changing needs? What about affordability of housing and house price inflation? What about location of housing? The availability of land? What about commuting and congestion? What about the burden of taxation between property and earned income? What about conflating home ownership with property investment?

If changes to pensions can contribute to good housing policy and the public good then by all means it should be looked at. Otherwise it is a separate matter and kept under review in its own right.

Anyway, I think we have drifted too far from the thread topic. I'll leave off - and enjoy my pension!

 

[kinnjohn]

now on a more serious note
has anyone noticed most of the downsizing or moving house by retired or shortly to be retired people is into housing in locations where there is already a shortage in lots of cases They are cash buyers pushing up prices on people needing houses near their work not to mention increasing LPT by increasing house prices on working people,

In other words, they are picking the Icing off the cake of low to medium-income workers needing to buy or rent housing near their work,

The houses they are moving out of Where I live anyhow are being snapped up by people moving for lifestyle reasons most are spending large amounts of money doing them up,
People cannot get local Builders to build new houses as there is easier money to be made working in the lifestyle housing sector soaking up almost all available construction labor,
Retired people moving house could soak up most of the construction labor around to build new houses on both ends of the move first getting the house they are moving into to their liking

Then the new owners using up more construction labor on the house they moved out of,

 

[kinnjohn]

If changes to pensions can contribute to good housing policy and the public good then by all means it should be looked at. Otherwise it is a separate matter and kept under review in its own right.

Anyway, I think we have drifted too far from the thread topic. I'll leave off - and enjoy my pension!

And I can enjoy my house my well-earned pension and my retirement,

To be honest, I looked at moving after retiring I went to a viewing the other people at the viewing had a small child, Mother was looking to buy around that area for part-time work reasons, if I had bid I would have driven the price up more they finished up buying,

just for the record, I have met that couple out walking they always stand and we have a chat they love the house only did a few DIY jobs on it since moving in a few years ago,
Had I bought I would have spent money mostly on Construction labor,

 

[Odea]

Another suggestion is to look at allowing the proceeds of sale of family homes be exempt from inheritance tax threshold for a period of 3 to 5 years therefore increasing supply.

Can you expand on this. I am not sure what you mean.

If the older owner has died, let's say the proceeds go to the children........how will this action increase supply?

 

[Marco 1972]

Interesting threads, will be 50 on nxt birthday and the 'R' word is recurring on an increasing basis at coffe break with the same age cohort, we have decent public service conditions etc feeling that we are the very very tail end of that 'Boomer' era, own property etc

Definitely notice our rubbish autumn/winter climate as l get older....

is there a big difference between 60 and 65 in terms of energy, concentration etc,

 

[PGF2016]

Can you expand on this. I am not sure what you mean.

If the older owner has died, let's say the proceeds go to the children........how will this action increase supply?

I think it's incentivizing selling the parents home as opposed to retaining it.

 

[LondonIrish]

I am unable to post links here but there is a development in Muswell Hill in north London called Woodside Square. It is near where I live and I think that it is a good example of the type of downsized property development that we need more of. It is in London so obviously the prices reflect this but it is in an area I know well. There are great local amenities and for many of the residents their old family homes are just a couple of streets away.

Although it is marketed at over-55s there are a load of townhouses in the same develoment that are aimed at families (the local schools are good) and this ensures that the place does not feel like a retirees-only development. There are some interesting additional facilities too like a large communal area that is used for social clubs, yoga and can be rented for parties. There are also a couple of ensuite double rooms available for rent so owners can ensure extra space when family or friends come to visit.

 

[DublinHead54]

But you would not be thrown out. A rise in LPT all around (not just on the Leper household or on the over 60s, etc) would in my opinion, encourage a better use of the housing stock. If you are paying €600 and it rose to €6000 then you and Mrs. Leper are well capable of making a rational choice on whether to stay or move to

Would that not only work if the LPT was levied against particular age groups? If it rose from 600 to 6,000 for all then arguably people with young families would be put under more financial pressure than empty nesters who have fewer outgoings.

I've seen property tax used as a means to gentrify neighbourhoods in the US. Low income families unable to sustain the tax due to house price increases, forced to sell. Due to higher house prices only certain percentage of the population can afford to buy in the area, pushing lower incomes families out further or to less desirable areas.

Dublin likely has the largest concentration of empty nesters. If they were all suddenly incentivised to sell, it wouldn't solve the housing crisis because not everyone looking to buy could afford the high prices.

 

[SoylentGreen]

is there a big difference between 60 and 65 in terms of energy, concentration etc,

I am approaching 70 years. I took early retirement in my 50's. I have spent 20 years travelling, pottering about the house and garden. Keeping in touch with family, grand children. Not big drinkers, no fancy restaurants, modest cars, not interested in clothes or bling. Live in coastal south Dublin. Have everything on my doorstep. Not good at DIY. Large house.

We have decided to stay put after discussing downsizing at length. Looked at a 3 bed apartment recently, short of €1m. Luxurious, close to where we live......but after talking through this we came to the conclusion that we were mad to even consider it. Going from the known to the unknown. The devil we know.....What if it didn't work out...there would be no going back.

Not being good at DIY has lots of problems for us. My house needs a number of improvements. I am pretty clueless. We recently decided to upgrade a shower room. Got one quote €16k and another €6k. Patio doors €4k. Maybe replace a few windows etc. We need a new kitchen....kitchen, electrics, floor levelling, tiles, gas....

House is cold in the winter.

Exhausted at the prospect.

So we came to the conclusion that the only reason we would be moving house was to buy somewhere where all these jobs had been done.

We were effectively dodging the work that needed to be done on the house that we love and want to stay in.

So to answer Marco 1972.....I think that we have lost our "bottle". Jobs that we did back in the 70's, 80's and 90's without a thought seems enormous to get done now. Also trying to get people with the knowledge to do these jobs is proving difficult. So many, are up to their eyes in work.

 

[kinnjohn]

Would that not only work if the LPT was levied against particular age groups? If it rose from 600 to 6,000 for all then arguably people with young families would be put under more financial pressure than empty nesters who have fewer outgoings.

I've seen property tax used as a means to gentrify neighbourhoods in the US. Low income families unable to sustain the tax due to house price increases, forced to sell. Due to higher house prices only certain percentage of the population can afford to buy in the area, pushing lower incomes families out further or to less desirable areas.

build more houses to match the average industrial wage, CSO Figures published 6 June 2020 show more than 400000 jobs were created in the Irish economy between 2014 and 2020 some of these extra job holders would now be in the market looking for houses,

the same CSO report shows the annual average earnings rose 3.5% to 40.283 in 2019,

again the CSO report shows an average full-time salary of 48946

The CSO report did not show the most important statistic which would have to be the incomes of the 400000 newly created jobs there is a good chance by now some of these people would be in the market for social or private sector housing,

If we are growing jobs we also need to be building more houses to match their incomes

 

[jpd]

The lack of a suitable mix of housing in many areas is a huge disincentive for many older people to downsize as it often means they would have to leave the area and move away.

The planning process which encouraged or indeed only allowed a standard type of house to be built is at fault.

Many, many plans to add a mix of smaller houses and apartments into an area of standard 3- or 4- bedroom houses was met with dismay and stonewalled by the very people who now moan about the lack of suitable housing to move into.

The planners and politicians who are responsible for this state of affairs are only interested in the short term - ie can I get re-elected next year or the year after - long term housing planning is non-existent in this country