Advice for disciplinary meeting

If there is an original complaint against you then that's fine. If the company is now fishing/enticing/encouraging information from third parties to support the original complaint then that is not on. They will keep going until they get a negative comment from someone to present at their next meeting.
If this is the case then you will have the right to ask "did anyone say anything positive about me or are you just presenting the negatives here today". Then ask to see the positive comments in addition to the negative comments. Otherwise they are demonising you.
 
SBarrett said:
The Freedom of Information applies to the public service but good idea.

Under the Data Protection Act, you are entitled to see a copy of the file they have on you. Look up the Data Protection Commissioner as there is a procedure you have to follow and you have to word your letter in a certain way. It doesn't happen quickly by the way.

I am almost sure under Employment Law you are entitled to see copies of the minutes taken in a disciplinary meeting. You should look it up.


Steven
http://www.bluewaterfp.ie (www.bluewaterfp.ie)
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Thanks SB - I'll check that out - much appreciated,

Roy
 
I work for a very large multinational organisation, because of it's size and complexity matrix management is quite normal ie. managers manage teams in several countries & continents. In some cases managers also perform local administrative duties for employees whose functional manager is in a different geography.

Some roles require employees to work unusual hours eg. supporting west coast of US or maybe Asian timezones. Where people are required to do that the have been paid shift payment. The process has been quite simple, the employee completes an electronic form for shift payment and the local manager will approve and it goes to payroll for processing. This has been the process for many years.

Simple!..... until about 8 months ago when an investigator from the US arrived to interrogate some such employees and then the local managers about these payments. The result being that a large number of managers being hauled into disciplinary hearings 6 months later and charged with not getting approval from HR / functional managers etc etc. Several managers asked for a copy of this procedure / policy - it has never been forthcoming.

HR have confirmed that there is no such policy, there is no education of managers on any such policy, there is no review of such processes etc etc. Still, 6 weeks after the hearings a large number of managers are awaiting the outcomes of these hearings which carry a sanction "up to and including dismissal".

This has been going on altogether for 8 months now and has been very distressing for employees and managers caught up in this debacle.

Any advice would be appreciated,

R.
 
Sue Ellen said:
Hi Roger,

Is this matter related to this previous thread?

Would recommend these people again http://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/
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Hi Sue Ellen, yes it is the same case - in hindsight I should have just posted an update to that thread so my apologies for that.

It seems do have dragged on for an inordinate period of time without any sign of a decision which make the lives of all those caught up in it a misery because it's impossible to plan ie. applying for new roles within the org., making major investments like moving house etc when this is hanging over people.

R.
 
rogeroleary said:
Hi Sue Ellen, yes it is the same case - in hindsight I should have just posted an update to that thread so my apologies for that.
R.
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Hi Roger,

I've merged the two threads as it makes more sense.

Hope things work out for everyone as it seems to be a very stressful situation.
 
Roger , perhaps the forthcoming legislation , due to be passed before the summer recess on collective bargaining rights , may assist ?
As well as the option for a group of employees to seek clarification of their terms & conditions via the Labour Court this legislation provides for employees who are being victimised .
I have posted more info on this under the " economic issues " forum.
 
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It's not unusual in an American multi-national to have different policies in place around the world to suit local requirements. It's also not unusual for Head Office in the US not to understand some of those processes

Based on what has the OP posted, it would seem that there is an undocumented policy around approval but also potentially an undocumented policy/practice around the payment of out of hours allowances. I note the OP has also said some of these workers work in other juristictions. Some questions that should be answered

  • Did any of the employees getting this allowance transfer into the company from another org via a takeover or outsourcing? Potentially they may have transferred in T&C's not covered under normal comp policy
  • Has anyone checked the contracts of the employees in question to see if they have any rights to the payments.?
  • Have HR in the relevant country got a documented policy around this payment? Local HR policies in Ireland may be irrelevant
  • What are your own managers saying about the issue.? Are they being supportive?
As for the potential that collective bargaining rights might assist?. With all due respect to the person who posted about that and speaking as someone who has worked for American IT companies over the year, let's just say that this would not provide much encouragement for the company to either retain an office in Ireland or to have someone in Ireland managing overseas staff when that could easily be done in another country.
 
rogeroleary said:
This has been the process for many years.
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That is what you have to argue. It is practice and has been done for years. And surely HR knew about this practice? I presume they are the ones doing payroll? Why didn't they stop it?

If there are a number of you involved in this, why not group together and hire a good employment law solicitor?

Employment law is so complex, it is impossible for employees to stand a chance against organisations with vast resources. Pay for expertise and get this knocked on its head.

Steven
http://www.bluewaterfp.ie (www.bluewaterfp.ie)
 
The legislation to which I referred has been approved by cabinet & presumably as such will be enacted before the Dail summer recess as promised.

Most multi nationals appear quite pragmatic & indeed have little problems locating in countries where Unions have far more legislative rights than here - perhaps our tax system is a far bigger carrot ?

Despite any debate on the above , perhaps the most important point from the OP's point of view is that this forthcoming legislation may prove to be of assistance ?
 
Not sure how the collective bargaining legislation will help in this case, or with a disciplinary action. Certainly may be of value in negotiating terms in future, but in this case, you should push the company to provide documentary evidence of what the policy is around these payments. Even if they have a policy in place, they will then need to prove they communicated the policy in sufficient detail to staff in order to take disciplinary action on it. The EAP will not look favourably on an org that relies on undistributed policies to dish out disciplinary action.

Does the work contract deal with or mention this shift work or allowances in any way?
 
thedaddyman said:
It's not unusual in an American multi-national to have different policies in place around the world to suit local requirements. It's also not unusual for Head Office in the US not to understand some of those processes

Based on what has the OP posted, it would seem that there is an undocumented policy around approval but also potentially an undocumented policy/practice around the payment of out of hours allowances. I note the OP has also said some of these workers work in other juristictions. Some questions that should be answered

Hi thedaddyman - please see response in bold below
  • Did any of the employees getting this allowance transfer into the company from another org via a takeover or outsourcing? Potentially they may have transferred in T&C's not covered under normal comp policy - not applicable in this case
  • Has anyone checked the contracts of the employees in question to see if they have any rights to the payments.? No, but up to some months ago this ago nobody ever contested this. It seems to stem from a view expressed in the recent past by an American gentleman with an American perspective
  • Have HR in the relevant country got a documented policy around this payment? at the time this blew up there was no detailed policy, just an intranet site saying something to the effect that shift premia applied to people who work "unusual hours" Local HR policies in Ireland may be irrelevant
  • What are your own managers saying about the issue.? Are they being supportive? Senior managers (most located internationally) can't believe a) that this is an issue and b) the manner in which this is being handled
As for the potential that collective bargaining rights might assist?. With all due respect to the person who posted about that and speaking as someone who has worked for American IT companies over the year, let's just say that this would not provide much encouragement for the company to either retain an office in Ireland or to have someone in Ireland managing overseas staff when that could easily be done in another country.
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agreed, it's a disasterous experiment. The web of legislation, local practices that a manager would need to be aware of across many countries is unmanagable.
 
SBarrett said:
Hi SB - please see responses in bold below

That is what you have to argue. It is practice and has been done for years. And surely HR knew about this practice? Local HR are running scared on this denying they were aware - even though they have to approve every job posting which would have stated "must be prepared to work 2nd shift" I presume they are the ones doing payroll? No they don't do payroll, that's done in another geography Why didn't they stop it? Because everyone thought that working 2pm to 10pm or 3 to 11pm was considered shift until someone from America came up with a different idea and now people are running scared.

If there are a number of you involved in this, why not group together and hire a good employment law solicitor? Several of us, myself includedm have retained legal advice.

Employment law is so complex, it is impossible for employees to stand a chance against organisations with vast resources. Pay for expertise and get this knocked on its head.The problem is that you still have to allow the process take it's course - it's now almost 9 months since this started - several of the managers "under investigation" have empathised with the unfortunate suicide of the Garda Sargeant in Donegal - effectively your whole life goes on hold while awaiting the next step.

Steven
http://www.bluewaterfp.ie (www.bluewaterfp.ie)
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Grizzly said:
If there is an original complaint against you then that's fine. If the company is now fishing/enticing/encouraging information from third parties to support the original complaint then that is not on. They will keep going until they get a negative comment from someone to present at their next meeting.
If this is the case then you will have the right to ask "did anyone say anything positive about me or are you just presenting the negatives here today". Then ask to see the positive comments in addition to the negative comments. Otherwise they are demonising you.
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Hi Grizzly, it seems like it's just gone out of control and has become a monster. All of the managers in question (that I am aware of) have had a very much upward trajectory in their managerial careers, at least half would be top 10% in terms of ratings with peers. Average service is 20+ years, average Mgt experience would be 15+ years. Nobody is suggesting that anyone made 1 cent from what was very much custom & practice. All that remains to be decided is what the monster has to deliver some collateral damage :confused:
 
It seems bizarre that someone can be disciplined for following a course of action which was established as “custom and practice” where there was no documented process or procedure to the contrary. For you or your colleagues to be disciplined your employer would have to show that you broke the law or breached a published policy or procedure on pay structures.
 
Maybe it's time to throw a bomb at your HR people or whoever is leading this and file a grievance.

I'm not surprised with your local HR people either and they failing to take any responsibility. Par for the course from what I've seen of HR people in similar multinationals
 
Purple said:
It seems bizarre that someone can be disciplined for following a course of action which was established as “custom and practice” where there was no documented process or procedure to the contrary. For you or your colleagues to be disciplined your employer would have to show that you broke the law or breached a published policy or procedure on pay structures.
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Thanks Purple - in 25 years of mgt I've never seen anything like it, even if someone was suspicious I would have thought it could have been cleared up in a couple of days - max 1 week, but 9 months and counting..........:eek:. Actually, since it arose 1 of us has been going back to Legal each month to ask if the payments should be approved - every time the answer is yes!! So now, even though we stand accused the Legal guys have instructed on 8 or 9 occasions to keep approving the payments..... as Bertie would say - it's get bizarrer all the time :p
 
thedaddyman said:
Maybe it's time to throw a bomb at your HR people or whoever is leading this and file a grievance. I'm reluctant to break ranks and go out on a limb unnecessarily daddyman. I think there will be a bomb though if there is any sanction.

I'm not surprised with your local HR people either and they failing to take any responsibility. Par for the course from what I've seen of HR people in similar multinationals
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Sadly I agree. When it's just in country issue they have a swagger about them, but when there's anything from Corporate they run for cover and leave you dangling on your own o_O

Roger
 
Hi Roger, don't waste your time. Freedom of Information has its limits. What might exist inside or outside your file does not guarantee that you will see it. No organisation worth its salt will leave you near anything questionable recorded on disciplinary matters. Keep your notes (and remember you don't have to show them to your employer either).

Organisations such as yours will treat your apparent naivety with contempt.
 
Incredibly 3 months after the "disciplinary hearing" and 9 months after we were first invited to a meeting we have heard absolutely nothing back on our situations. There is talk that HR are now being audited / investigated but no feedback for the managers. I mentioned previously how stressful this has been, sadly it appears that one of the people involved has developed a serious illness that is life threatening, the implications for this person are enormous - potentially they could lose their job (and their life cover) within a relatively short period of time
 
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