Accountant fees

[ubiquitous]

...which is 100% down to pure, naked greed and has nothing to do with ever-increasing staff costs and other overheads

Name me three labour-intensive service sectors in the Irish economy that have not experienced sustained year-on-year price increases over the past 5-10 years and I'll buy you a pint

 

[rabbit]

...which is 100% down to pure, naked greed and has nothing to do with ever-increasing staff costs and other overheads

Maybe not just 100% greed on the part of certain accountants - after all their luxury foreign property villas , investment portfolio, new top of the range cars etc has to be funded somehow. Shure why should they not charge thousands for very little work ?

 

[ubiquitous]

Maybe not just 100% greed on the part of certain accountants - after all their luxury foreign property villas , investment portfolio, new top of the range cars etc has to be funded somehow. Shure why should they not charge thousands for very little work ?

well, if your accountant enjoys all their luxury foreign property villas , investment portfolio, new top of the range cars etc and charges you thousands for very little work, there is nothing to stop you going elsewhere...once you make your move well ahead of the filing deadline rush, of course

 

[webtax]

Maybe not just 100% greed on the part of certain accountants - after all their luxury foreign property villas , investment portfolio, new top of the range cars etc has to be funded somehow. Shure why should they not charge thousands for very little work ?

unlike many professions, there is no restriction of entry for persons wishing to train as accountants and also, there is no shortage of firms for clients to choose from. why not become one yourself if you think they have it so easy?

maybe the accountant with the investment portfolio & top of the range cars has them because he is good at his job and work hard to get to his position???

 

[rabbit]

maybe the accountant with the investment portfolio & top of the range cars has them because he is good at his job and work hard to get to his position???

I am not talking about one particular accountant - I can think of a handful off the top of my head who I know only too well, and who are now multimillionaires having based their business in little old " Rip -off Ireland" - at the expense of their clients. I know of one little job one accountancy firm did, which was really no use to anybody, and yet which they were able to charge over 20,000 for. The taxpayer ultimately paid for that. The accountants are not any better at their job than anyone else is, and they certainly do not work that hard.
Anyway, to get back to the original posters point / theme, it certainly pays to shop around, and I have felt having paid many tens of thousands of euro in accountancy fees over the past number of years that you certainly do not get extra value for money if you throw coconuts at them instead of peanuts.

 

[Graham_07]

I know of one little job one accountancy firm did, which was really no use to anybody, and yet which they were able to charge over 20,000 for. The taxpayer ultimately paid for that.

Wouldn't be the first or last time taxpayers paid for goods/serivces which were not needed or worthwhile, where shall I start ........ P-PARS ..... elect voting, ..... ?

The accountants are not any better at their job than anyone else is, and they certainly do not work that hard.

Applies to many trades/professions also, not exclusive to accountants. SO again, nothing new there.

you certainly do not get extra value for money if you throw coconuts at them instead of peanuts

The old adage of a fair day's work for a fair day's pay has gone astray in many fields of work today. But to be honest, I never liked coconuts but a bottle of Chablis 1er Cru would do very nicely thanks.

Incidentally, seeing as its closing in on the season of goodwill, here's one for the beancounters . How many accountants out there get / give xmas presents/cards from / to their clients?

 

[ubiquitous]

I have felt having paid many tens of thousands of euro in accountancy fees over the past number of years that you certainly do not get extra value for money if you throw coconuts at them instead of peanuts.

Why then didn't you shop around yourself?

 

[z103]

Why then didn't you shop around yourself?

Although this isn't directed at me, I did shop around (see earlier post). It's almost like there is some kind of cartel in operation.

They have several options; they are free to go elsewhere; they can prepare their own returns; or they can simply leave their tax returns until after the deadline and end up paying penalties to the Revenue, and moving up a notch on the Revenue's Revenue Audit risk-profiling system.

I detest this. Pay up or the revenue will come down on you like a ton of bricks. It seems to be a common tactic. Then add a load of smoke and mirrors and whack the price up.

Isn't there advertising laws governing this kind of thing, acting on people's fear?

 

[Graham_07]

I detest this. Pay up or the revenue will come down on you like a ton of bricks. It seems to be a common tactic. Then add a load of smoke and mirrors and whack the price up.

Isn't there advertising laws governing this kind of thing, acting on people's fear?

Taxpayers, especially those in the system a few years should be well aware of the deadline. It's not rocket science. 31 October 2007 for paper filing of years ending in 2006 or 15 November 2007 for ROS filing & payment. Revenue start advertising on radio in August. They step up the ads as the time gets closer. They are everywhere, they get on my nerves they're on so much. Yet with this and the fact that we (a) write every client at their year end and (b) do follow up phone calls closer to the due date, there are still a number of people who don't make the deadline. There's always an excuse. So I for one have not much sympathy for anyone being late. Accountants do not cause people to come in at the last minute with returns and then "whak up the prices". I don't know of any accountant who'd say, hey lets wait til last minute to get the work done then we can work 25 hours a day for 8 days a week and charge more. Come on.

( just realised, I'm posting on AAM a lot today & its the 15th November....hmmm....must be up to date with everyone so , darn that means no chance to whack up someone's bill, awww )

 

[mf1]

"I detest this. Pay up or the revenue will come down on you like a ton of bricks. It seems to be a common tactic. Then add a load of smoke and mirrors and whack the price up.

Isn't there advertising laws governing this kind of thing, acting on people's fear?"

No. There are laws in place requiring people to pay their taxes in a timely manner. There are no shortage of reminders to people to do so and I have no sympathy with people who do not pay their taxes in time and who then whinge about having to pay penalties. I would be more angry if Revenue did not penalise people who played fast and loose with their obligations.

I have accountancy friends who will be at work until midnight tonight dealing with the crazy folk who did not get their act together in time to get their affairs in order and pay their taxes in time. And those clients should and will be billed triple time.

mf

 

[z103]

Taxpayers, especially those in the system a few years should be well aware of the deadline. It's not rocket science. 31 October 2007 for paper filing of years ending in 2006 or 15 November 2007 for ROS filing & payment.

I've been in business about 6 years.

Last year (2006) was the first year I was aware of the 31 Oct deadline. This year (2007) was the first year I was aware that 15 Nov was the ROS deadline, because I happened to have read it a couple of weeks ago on AAM.

I have yet to see or hear an advert from revenue about these dates. I never listen to the radio or the TV.

Sounds hard to believe, but it's true.

 

[ubiquitous]

I detest this. Pay up or the revenue will come down on you like a ton of bricks. It seems to be a common tactic. Then add a load of smoke and mirrors and whack the price up.

Isn't there advertising laws governing this kind of thing, acting on people's fear?

I'm not overly fond of these warnings re audit risk profiling either. However if you want to blame someone for them, don't blame the accountants. Blame the Revenue as it is the Revenue who have devised and promoted the concept.

[broken link removed]

Public Accounts Committee Hearing, 20 October, 2005.
Revenue Vote 2004
Opening Statement by Revenue Chairman, Frank Daly.

These traditional audit programmes Chairman, from which we continue to get very good results, are part of Revenue’s overall compliance activity. I would like to advise the Committee that, just as we have modernised our organisation to meet new challenges, so also are we modernising our whole approach to compliance. As we move on, our compliance interventions, whether they be audits or otherwise, are increasingly risk driven and based on extensive sectoral and taxpayer analysis. We are using computer technology to select cases based on risk profiling and during the audit process itself. Most importantly we are increasing the scale of real-time activity on the ground through visits to premises, surveillance, site visits and the like. All such interventions are driving our compliance agenda and as such we would propose to specifically recognise and reflect them in future performance reports from Revenue.

 

[Graham_07]

I've been in business about 6 years.

Last year (2006) was the first year I was aware of the 31 Oct deadline. This year (2007) was the first year I was aware that 15 Nov was the ROS deadline, because I happened to have read it a couple of weeks ago on AAM.

I have yet to see or hear an advert from revenue about these dates. I never listen to the radio or the TV.

Sounds hard to believe, but it's true.

It certainly is given that I assume that you filed returns in those other 5 earlier years. The deadline each year is clearly printed on the front page of the tax return. Can it be any simpler?

 

[ubiquitous]

It's almost like there is some kind of cartel in operation.

On what basis do you say this?

There is no evidence whatsoever of a cartel in the Irish accountancy practice sector.

There are many thousands of practices in the country, all competing with each other.

There are four competing Accountancy Institutes in Ireland who regulate their members.

Thousands of new people qualify as accountants each year.

There are many accountants in Ireland who are not regulated by any Institute.

Anyone, anywhere in Ireland can set themselves up as an accountant, and practice without any minimum requirement for training, experience, qualifications, integrity or financial solvency.

 

[z103]

It certainly is given that I assume that you filed returns in those other 5 earlier years. The deadline each year is clearly printed on the front page of the tax return. Can it be any simpler?

Well, let me see now.

- There's Vat returns, every two, (or is it three months now) on some date I can't remember - or at the end of the year if you pay by direct debit.

- PAYE/PRSI - do the P35 by some time in feb. P30s, do you have to file these if paying by direct debit?

- Year end returns, do these depend on a ARD? - is everyone's ARD the same? I noticed there were a couple of different dates on the CT(1 or 2)

- CT1 (or is it CT2) - this goes to the CRO, I think. Is this part of an annual return? - I couldn't tell you.

- Returns to the revenue - what are they looking for here? profit and loss?

- Personal returns. Haven't a clue about this, or what I should be returning.

Yes, I do find the whole thing very confusing. Then again, I'm not an accountant. Why should the revenue expect people to understand all this stuff?

 

[Graham_07]

There are many accountants in Ireland who are not regulated by any Institute.

Anyone, anywhere in Ireland can set themselves up as an accountant, and practice without any minimum requirement for training, experience, qualifications, integrity or financial solvency.

So when you are shopping around for that elusive lowest quote...remember
1) Qualified accountants take a minimum of 4 and often 6-7 (with college degrees and professional examinations) years to make.

2) Member of the recognised accountancy bodies are regulated and have to undergo continuing professional education of approx 30 hours p.a.

3) Newly qualified accountants need 3 years usually of post-qualification experience before they can apply for a practising certificate.

4) Regulated accountats have Professional Indemnity Insurance.

This don't come cheap folks.

 

[z103]

This don't come cheap folks.

What techical industry is cheap? Many professions require degrees and further training. Big deal.

To finish off;
I'm simply posting as a client of accountants, and this is my personal perception. Think of it as feedback to the profession. If you do not agree with aspects of what I've said, then don't blame the customer - think of ways to address these issues.

Then again, you can always just ignore all the comments that I, and others, have made. Maybe as competition increases you may reconsider them.

 

[Graham_07]

- There's Vat returns, every two, (or is it three months now) on some date I can't remember - or at the end of the year if you pay by direct debit.

Due dates are clearly written on the returns. If you pay by direct debit then you are , by default, on annual returns due 19 days after the end of the relevant period.

- PAYE/PRSI - do the P35 by some time in feb. P30s, do you have to file these if paying by direct debit?

P-35 due date is mid-Feb usually around 15th. Again, like VAT if you're on DD you do not get P30s. You wrap it all up on the P-35

- Year end returns, do these depend on a ARD? - is everyone's ARD the same? I noticed there were a couple of different dates on the CT(1 or 2)

ARD's are CRO dates, latest ARD you can have is 9 months after your year end.

CT Return due date 21st of the ninth month after the year end.

- CT1 (or is it CT2) - this goes to the CRO, I think. Is this part of an annual return? - I couldn't tell you.

CT1 is your Corporation Tax Return, goes to Revenue, not CRO.

- Returns to the revenue - what are they looking for here? profit and loss?

What they seek is outlined in the CT1

- Personal returns. Haven't a clue about this, or what I should be returning.

F11 or 12 depending on status, self-employed, proprietory director, PAYE, non-proprietory director

Yes, I do find the whole thing very confusing. Then again, I'm not an accountant. Why should the revenue expect people to understand all this stuff

Thats understandable. Your job is to concentrate on your business. That's why people rely heavily on accountants. Many people would consider it money well spent. ( exceptions in this thread notwithstanding) A good relationship with an accountant may be seen as symbiotic, where both, over time benefit from the mutual growth and trust and understanding between the parties.

 

[z103]

Thanks for that Graham_07.

 

[rabbit]

newly qualified accountants are not allowed to set up in practice, regardless of whether or not they are technically competent to do vat returns.