85,000 people getting rent assistance

Leo

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The point is, a landlord who treats housing like any other commodity like car repairs, or serving beer, should not be a landlord in the first place. They are out of their depth.
Why? You need to decide whether being a landlord is a business or a social service. If it's a business, then it should be strictly treated as such. It is entirely unreasonable to expect any private business to prioritise social need over the financial health of that business.
 

WolfeTone

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It actually is once you're of adult age, that's all you need to put on the form. It has been spoken about as an issue in the social housings system for years to the extent that the prioritisation of homeless for social housing was being questioned. Owen Keegan spoke about it as still being a problem last year.
We are in danger of splitting hairs here. Keegan was involved with, and referring to, emergency accommodation as far as I recall. If you need emergency accommodation, yes, presenting yourself as having nowhere to stay is enough to get you a bed in a hostel or wherever. It does not automatically place you on the social housing list. You still have to meet the criteria above to qualify. Presenting yourself as homeless because "we had a fight...." is not a reasonable factor. It would have to be based on something more substantive like "we had a fight...and I fear for my safety" followed by an account of the fight and the reason to fear for ones safety. In which case Gardai should be called to investigate the claims. While such an investigation is occuring you can take up a bed in 12 person dormitory with the junkies and winos, if this is preferrable - in which case, adds substantive weight to the claim of fearing for safety at home and places you on the social housing list if your safety fears are substantiated - I don't think this is an issue?

Or, perhaps, you may consider on reflection, that the fight wasn't so bad after all, and that the benefits of the comfortable bed back home outweighs the hassle of squabbling siblings and their parents?
 
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WolfeTone

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You need to decide whether being a landlord is a business or a social service
Its a social service, derived from social policy over the decades. Its why we have government departments dealing with it. The State has failed over the last 20yrs and more, to meet its obligations to provide adequate and affordable housing to meet the demands of the population. This is a consequence of public policy derived from successive governments that bought into the notion that the markets would be the most efficient and effective way to supply housing for the population.


If it's a business, then it should be strictly treated as such. It is entirely unreasonable to expect any private business to prioritise social need over the financial health of that business.
It is a business, but it is not a comparable business to most other commodities for sale, like cars or beer. As such cannot be strictly treated as such.
 

Leo

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We are in danger of splitting hairs here. Keegan was involved with, and referring to, emergency accommodation as far as I recall.
Nope, he was talking about the permanent allocation of social housing. Remember the authorities being ordered to allocate no less than 50% of their long-term social housing spots to those registering as homeless?
 

WolfeTone

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We have government departments dealing with the licensed trade, does that make the pubs a social service? How about the banks?
Ok, my err. My intention was to say that the provision of housing is a social service, not the act of being a landlord as I implied.
The issuing and granting of licensing, consumer protections, regulation of alcohol products and banking services is providing a social service.
The State has failed in its obligation to provide sufficient and adequate housing. The consequences being landlords feel they have no protections against rogue tenants, and tenants demanding protections against rent hikes that threatens their ability to live and work in a peaceful stable environment.
 

WolfeTone

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Remember the authorities being ordered to allocate no less than 50% of their long-term social housing spots to those registering as homeless?
No I dont recall.

Either way, to be registered as homeless and qualify for social housing, it takes more than "We had a fight...". Here is a summary from Focus Ireland about the make-up of homeless in the State.

"In the past, most people using emergency accommodation were single adults. But in the last three years, there has been a rapid increase in the number of families becoming homeless, and in August 2020, there were 1,120 families accessing emergency accommodation. This includes 2,620 children. Focus Ireland publishes regular insights into family homelessness reports which aim to further our understanding in developing effective responses to the problem. "

And an excerpt from Insight into family homelessness 2019

"Families in private rented accommodation bear brunt of crisis. While the roots of the current family homeless crisis are complex, implicating general housing policy and social housing policy, the consequences of the crisis continue to be experienced primarily by families living in the private rented sector (PRS). Seven out of every ten families becoming homeless rented their last stable home from a private landlord and this has remained remarkably consistent since our first study in 2015. It is also notable that virtually all of the families living in the private rented sector (94% n=151) had been in those private rented homes for over a year, and 26% of families (n=42) had lived in those rented homes for over six years. In other words, these families were stably housed for long periods of time, suggesting that their tenancy agreements were successfully maintained and that, until the current crisis, the private rental sector had provided many families with what appeared to be a stable place to make their home. Fifty-eight per cent of all the 237 families reported that their tenancies ended due to issues specifically related to their rental tenancies, such as rent affordability issues, landlords selling up, landlords giving property to family member, renovation, etc. This consistent finding validates government attention to measures to increase the security of private rented tenancies and to control rents"
 

Leo

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My intention was to say that the provision of housing is a social service
I'd argue that the provision of social housing is a social service, and that is the government's responsibility. I think most would agree successive governments have failed in this regard.

But it isn't right to classify all housing as a social service. What social need is the €14k/ month house in D4 serving?
 

Leo

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Either way, to be registered as homeless and qualify for social housing, it takes more than "We had a fight...".
I think Owen Keegan & Conor Skehan are far better placed than either of us, so I'll take their word over yours. I'd also be wary of the homelessness industry that spends such significant amounts of their funding on payroll.
 

Leo

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think this IT report summarizes the point very well, i
Yeah, it agrees he was stating facts when talking about people gaming the system to obtain social housing. That a 50% minimum quote was ever allocated goes to show how disfunctional the whole system is.
 

WolfeTone

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it agrees he was stating facts when talking about people gaming the system to obtain social housing.
Well, not really.

Its an eye-catching, click-baiting headline for sure, but the article clearly quotes Keegan as saying "I never said people were gaming the system. I went out of my way to say I wasn’t questioning the motives of people"

It attributes, correctly, the "gaming the system" quote to Conor Skeehan, who elaborated somewhat in front of the Oireachtas Housing Committee.

Im careful with my words

While he admitted that the issue was likely to be fairly minor, he largely stood by his initial comments.

“I’m careful with my words. I was extremely careful not to say that it was happening, just that it may be happening and that it should be investigated further.”


That the title of this thread highlights that 85,000 getting rent assistance demonstrates what the major issue at hand is and where the focus should be, rather than some minor unsubstantiated claim.
 
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Brendan Burgess

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No proper explanation has been given for almost €1 billion going to landlords for private rental accommodation, a Government TD has said.
Chairwoman of the Oireachtas Budgetary Oversight Committee Neasa Hourigan told the Dáil that the State was spending 30 per cent of housing budget in this way .“That is current, not capital expenditure that the taxpayer will need to fund every year,” the Green Party TD said.


She is right. It's a disgrace subsidising landlords like this. And while we are at it. Why are paying huge amounts of pensions and social welfare to supermarkets and pubs (off-licenses) . That is current expenditure too. All social welfare payments should be stopped to halt this profiteering by the likes of Tescos.

That will teach the landlords and the supermarkets and pubs!
 

AlbacoreA

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....
She is right. It's a disgrace subsidising landlords like this. ....
Whatever about the argument about it being poor value for money. There is some validity in that.

But "subsidizing" Landlords needs some context. The state outsourced its housing obligations to private market.
The private market didn't want this business. It was forced to take it, and indeed legislation was changed to force the private rental market to take this business. The Govt doesn't want this business because its difficult (not least because of the changes below) but also it doesn't have to carry the risk or the cost or difficulties with bad tenants.

The state has also distorted the market, not least through the RPZ, to make it less advantageous for small LLs, and those LL who keep rents low. It favours new LLs, and those that max out the rent, and REITs. That is because the state (along with many other countries) has commoditized housing as an investment vehicle to bring investment into the country and drive the recovery.

You also have to question way the stats on this, RTB, evictions, LL leaving the market, not transparent, and shifting metrics. Anyone would think, they don't want to look in case hard questions are asked. Maybe they just aren't interested. Also we've voted in these Govts in over and over again. No one can be surprised by any of this.
 

AlbacoreA

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....What social need is the €14k/ month house in D4 serving?
Exactly. Most discussions fail to recognize that its not one market. The market for social housing is not the same as high end. But the legislation is the same for both. Its like the discussions around supply. They talk about supply as if its all the same. But the supply of one type of housing demographic maybe very different to another housing demographic .
 
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