When was the last referendum? I've never been able to vote in one so there's a whole generation of fertile women who've never had a say. Thankfully I've never been in a situation where I've had to decide on abortion myself but I have a lot of friends (late 20's - mid 30's) who've travelled to the UK for the procedure.
truthseeker
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2002 I believe.
Abortion is a quick fix solution which gives rise to long-term negative impacts on the well-being of the women involved and on society in general. Women deserve better. Sadly there is, worldwide, a yearly hidden holocaust (emotive term granted, but apt methinks) of between 40 and 50 million abortions.
But if the child is being adopted theri finances, job etc won't be affected. I also think your health and emotional well being are just as likely to be affected by an abortion as by childbirth and adoption.
To be honest, there was a thread on this before and I think it got quite nasty in the end. (Not by anyone on here, I can't even remember who contributed).
I suppose, if you see abortion as killing a child then you don't see finance, job status etc as being an excuse for a termination and feel it is better for the mother to undergo the very understandable (and it is extremely understandable and sad) upset of an unwanted pregnancy and then handing over the child, to actually killing a baby.
truthseeker
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See this is why the debate never goes anywhere.
A definition of Holocaust from dictionary.com:
1. a great or complete devastation or destruction, esp. by fire.
2. a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering.
3. (usually initial capital letter) the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II (usually prec. by the).
4. any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life.
Ill assume OP is referring to meaning number 4?
Life is the key term here, there will never be agreement between individuals on when life begins. Its a grey area and it probably always will be.
truthseeker
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They will miss time from work (or maybe college), so may miss key meetings/projects/exams. It also takes the body some time to recover from pregnancy so they may be off or not fit for purpose for quite a while (im thinking of certain jobs that have a high activity level).
Yeah - I agree.
It usually does - people can get nasty when they cant MAKE other people agree with them on emotive issues!
Thats the thing, some people dont see it as a baby at all. So the term 'killing a baby' (which is an emotive one) doesnt count to those people.
I think social status counts a lot as well. Im sure no one wants to go through 9 months of pregnancy to tell people afterwards 'i gave the baby up for adoption'. I suppose it becomes a public matter if they do go ahead with the pregnancy, whereas its a private matter if they have an abortion.
Well that explains it. And there was me thinking that it might be because some hold their opinion to be supreme and wish to control the language used by those who have a contrary view
.truthseeker
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Well that explains it. And there was me thinking that it might be because some hold their opinion to be supreme and wish to control the language used by those who have a contrary view
And there was me thinking it might be because some hold their opinion to be supreme and wish to control the morals of others who have a contrary view
.
P
peelaaa
Guest
And priests can't even have relationships. What do they REALLY know about the reasons behind abortion?
My partner has a termination many years ago when when was young 17 or 18. She went to England for a termination and is convinced to this day that it was the best decision for her. She has suffered no negative impacts on herself personally.
I think many people who are anti abortion try to make women feel guilty about choices they make.
I have a practical, though perhaps simplistic, solution.
Loads of couples have fertility problems and so put a lot of time and money into foreign adoptions.
Hundreds, or thousands, of Irish women go to the UK, etc. to get abortions.
Can we imagine some way of matching these two groups?
Loads of couples have fertility problems and so put a lot of time and money into foreign adoptions.
Hundreds, or thousands, of Irish women go to the UK, etc. to get abortions.
Can we imagine some way of matching these two groups?
I won't engage in another abortion debate, suffice to say we all know how it will end - the die hards will drag it on for weeks in the end everybody will just have to agree to disagree. Abortion is one of those subjects where you just know the answer yourself, it's all down to your own beliefs and an argument on an internet forum will not change your opinion! .
I would suggest closing the debate and perhaps doing another poll similar to the Lisbon poll, to see if people would be for or against another referendum on abortion in Ireland - just out of interest for the OP!
I would suggest closing the debate and perhaps doing another poll similar to the Lisbon poll, to see if people would be for or against another referendum on abortion in Ireland - just out of interest for the OP!
truthseeker
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Good idea.
On the subject of abortion referendum (as opposed to abortion and the moral rights and wrongs) - how often should such a referendum be held?
I suspect until there is a yes vote. At which point the no voters are going to say 'we should have another referendum'. And the circularity begins again.
S
S.L.F
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Actually here is a priests' son
http://media.tribune.ie/site_media/.../Feb/07/cache/Ross_Hamilton003727_display.jpg
His da was Father Michael Cleary
What I find interesting about this debate is that we've never actually had a referendum on abortion that would have really introduced abortion.
1983 Referendum:
- 8th amendment - passed 64%
- 12th amendment - rejected 65%
- 25th amendment - rejected 50.42%
1983 Referendum:
- 8th amendment - passed 64%
- Introduced article 40.3.3 "The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right. "
- Triggered a high court judgement respecting privacy in marital affairs that worried William Binchy & Des Hanafin, who were pro-life.
- 12th amendment - rejected 65%
- Proposed adding "It shall be unlawful to terminate the life of an unborn unless such termination is necessary to save the life, as distinct from the health, of the mother where there is an illness or disorder of the mother giving rise to a real and substantial risk to her life, not being a risk of self-destruction. "
- Triggered by the X case - aim was to define suicide risk as not justification for abortion.
- Added "This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state."
- Added "This subsection shall not limit freedom to obtain or make available, in the State, subject to such conditions as may be laid down by law, information relating to services lawfully available in another state."
- Ending the practise where back pages with ads for UK family planning clinics were omitted from or cut from magazines.
- 25th amendment - rejected 50.42%
- Proposed adding article 40.3.4 "In particular the life of the unborn in the womb shall be protected in accordance with the provisions of the Protection of Human Life in Pregnancy Act 2002."
- Act would have introduced penalties for performing or assisting in abortion and defined suicide as not being sufficient grounds.
And there was me thinking it might be because some hold their opinion to be supreme and wish to control the morals of others who have a contrary view
I nominate you and michaelm for post of the week!
B
BeanPole
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Thanks for this circle
The irony is that many of these amendments were brought in to tighten the constraints on availability of abortion for distressed women, but each one ended up actually liberalising availability.
+1
Not in favour of abortion myself, just think it is fundamentally wrong, but that is my view. All I'll say on it that if it was legal in Ireland over the last few decades, how many people currently posting on here would not exist?
Same is true of the unavailability of contraception but does that make current availability wrong?