The Eucharistic Congress in 2012

Good post ClubMan.

I too would regard myself as a libertarian - but IMO that certainly doesn't exclude me from commenting on what I may see as hypocrisy and/or duplicity or other aspects of church practices if they affect my daily life. An example of which I mentioned above.
 
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Just to clarify - I was not accusing the Catholic Church of hypocrisy or duplicity in my post above. Neither do I expect them (or any other religious, representative or lobby group) NOT to get involved in national issues. But when any group or individual engages in this way then their actions and motivations are surely open to all, and not just members/insiders, to scrutinise and comment on? Specific internal matters (e.g. the Catholic Church stating or enforcing its own rules on its members) are another matter and arguably their own business. For example I personally do have strong opinions on Catholic Church control of national schools and their attempts to influence Government policy on various matters but I don't really care of they preclude separated or divorced individuals from remarrying in the church or claim that abortion is wrong etc.
 
ClubMan said:
It's certainly not one way traffic. The Catholic Church are happy to meddle in public affairs when it suits them. For example fighting tooth and nail to retain control of "national" schools
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The Catholic Church built and run most of the national schools.
 
ClubMan said:
What limits? The standard Libertarian caveat is that people can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm the person or property of other non consenting parties (or minors). Obviously the laws of the land may also circumscribe what's allowed in practice. Do you mean this or something else?

this.


It's certainly not one way traffic. The Catholic Church are happy to meddle in public affairs when it suits them. For example fighting tooth and nail to retain control of "national" schools and attempting to influence Government policies (e.g. on partnership, social, justice etc. issues) via self appointed bodies such as CORI and individuals such as Father Sean Healy. If it's OK for them to do this then surely it's OK for "outsiders" to comment on them and what they do?
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This is a logical fallacy. The Catholic church is just one of many bodies which comments on and has an input into public affairs. Certainly, there is no good reason for the Church to have any sort of 'special position', nor does it have. Of course it is perfectly fine to engage with and disagree with the church's position on matters of public policy. That is normal political discussion. But the Eucharistic Congress is not a public event and it is not a political event. It is just a gathering of practising Catholics. If you are not a practising catholic, it really isn't any of your business.

I am not aware of the Catholic Church fighting tooth and nail to retain control of national schools. So far as I am aware, it is the only owner of schools which is pursuing a policy of divesture.
 
The Catholic Church built and run most of the national schools.
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Sorry, but the State i.e. taxpayers, built and pays the staff in all these national schools. The Catholic Church gets a great deal as it gets free assets at taxpayers expense.
 
Anyone know if Richard Dawkins will be one of the speakers at the Eucharistic Conference?
 
csirl said:
Sorry, but the State i.e. taxpayers, built and pays the staff in all these national schools. The Catholic Church gets a great deal as it gets free assets at taxpayers expense.
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Afraid not. The state pays the teachers. The schools were built by the Catholic Church and are/were run by them. Granted the State has built the more modern schools.
 
The schools were built by the Catholic Church and are/were run by them
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Since the foundation of the State, the schools have been built and maintained with taxpayers money through building grants from D/Education. How many schools are pre-1920s and havent needed any maintenance since then?

In the past, before their numbers declined, the religious also got well paid jobs paid by the taxpayer as Principals, teachers etc. in these schools without having to go through a competitive recruitment process.
 
MOB said:
This is a logical fallacy. The Catholic church is just one of many bodies which comments on and has an input into public affairs. Certainly, there is no good reason for the Church to have any sort of 'special position', nor does it have. Of course it is perfectly fine to engage with and disagree with the church's position on matters of public policy. That is normal political discussion. But the Eucharistic Congress is not a public event and it is not a political event. It is just a gathering of practising Catholics. If you are not a practising catholic, it really isn't any of your business.
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There is no logical fallacy and nothing that I said contradicts what you are saying here.
I am not aware of the Catholic Church fighting tooth and nail to retain control of national schools. So far as I am aware, it is the only owner of schools which is pursuing a policy of divesture.
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Not according to several recent reports about control schools in parts of Dublin at least.
 
csirl said:
Sorry, but the State i.e. taxpayers, built and pays the staff in all these national schools. The Catholic Church gets a great deal as it gets free assets at taxpayers expense.
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Not disagreeing with you, but what do you mean free assets?
 
MOB said:
If it's OK for them to do this then surely it's OK for "outsiders" to comment on them and what they do?
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Clubman, This is what I referred to as the logical fallacy. Perhaps some examples will make my view clearer.

It's ok for me to offer advice to clients on their affairs. This does not make it their business to advise me on my my affairs.

It's ok for a politician to make public pronouncements on measures which may be needed to reduce family breakdown in society; This does not mean that the politician's own family life thereby becomes a matter of legitimate public interest.

It's ok for a church to comment on matters of public interest. This does not mean that the internal conduct of that church becomes a matter of legitimate public interest.

I don't think our positions are actually all that far apart. I concur completely that "Specific internal matters (e.g. the Catholic Church stating or enforcing its own rules on its members) are another matter and arguably their own business. " Except I would say "definitely their own business" and I would draw the line between public interest matters and internal church matters in a different place. For example, I would include Catholic schools in this. It would of course be wrong (and indefensible) if Catholic schools got higher public funding than (or priority to) other voluntary schools - but all things being equal, the Church should be just as free to run its schools as other voluntary bodies are to run theirs. There is a structural problem that the church has more schools than it needs, but, as stated, the church has already recognised this. We are in transition. Transition is never free of pain.
 
Betsy Og said:
I suppose the view is that the bad stuff (abuse scandals) is more or less through the pipe and a Pope's visit next year or by 2012 together with the above will "re-brand" the church again.
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I read somewhere that on the Pope's visit to the Boston he was visibly shaken when a huge document with the names and stories of abused individuals was opened to him. He would have been aware of the statistics but seeing so many individual stories must have brought the magnitude of the human tragedy home to him.

Boston by some accounts was the epicenter of the abuse scandal in the US and Boston, of course, is an "Irish" city. It would have been a major destination for Irish priests over the years.

Has anybody seen this angle examined? i.e was the export of Irish corruption and perversion a significiant contributing factor to the US scandal?
 
Remix said:
Has anybody seen this angle examined? i.e was the export of Irish corruption and perversion a significiant contributing factor to the US scandal?
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Yes. There and most disturbingly in the Mount Cashel Boys Home Newfoundland. There is a strong link between Irish clergy and sexual abuse in the Catholic Church.
 
Not disagreeing with you, but what do you mean free assets?
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The school buildings and land they are built on. The Catholic Church's name is on the deeds for all those schools built with taxpayers money that are under their patronage.

Whats worse is that some of these assets i.e. spare land, have been sold off to housing developers in recent years thus realising the church a nice profit.

Legally speaking, there is nothing to stop any of these catholic schools from just shutting down, selling the assets and running off with the money (in fact this is happening regularly in some parts of Dublin where numbers are falling and schools being closed).
 
The_Banker said:
Is anybody here getting as excited as I am with regard to the announcement that The Eucharistic Congress of 2012 will be held in Ireland?
1932 revisited?
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Have been hyperventilating since the news broke.:D As for that fellow in the black saying that he felt 'humbled'? Can someone shed some light on his grasp of the English language? By the time you are halfway up the hierarchial ladder, I would have thought that humility would not be one of your strong points. Corpus rotundum etc.
 
Surely this will be a huge event in our country for all practicising Catholics. A lot of clergy bashing goes on but we must spare a thought for all our good priests both here and all over the world who have done and are doing so much good and it must be so disheartening for them having to listen to all this.
 
Ash 22 said:
Surely this will be a huge event in our country for all practicising Catholics. A lot of clergy bashing goes on but we must spare a thought for all our good priests both here and all over the world who have done and are doing so much good and it must be so disheartening for them having to listen to all this.
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I have no special regard for priests, mullahs, rabbis, jedi knights etc ... but I also think that good behaviour and deeds should be applauded and encouraged, as well as attacking bad behaviour. There is a tendency to just concentrate on the bad stuff. Probably human nature, I suppose, just like asking why do the news media only seem to report bad news.
 
Id be more excited about the possibility of a Rooster Worship Congress - at least roosters exist.
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I take it your not a practising catholic then?
 
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