The Lisbon vote

Re: Lisbon yes or no?

television said:
If we are being realistic here these sons and daughters of politicans are being gentley nugged throughout thier life in the right direction and given that ever so slightly wink and a nod and a little bit of help. their qualities pushed to the fore by politically powerful parents and associates while their failings ignored. Trouble is that equation is reversed for thier political compeditors in thier own parties. All the while the matra of "hes/shes got there throught their own ability not throught parental support" is being spouted.
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Just to comment further on that; undoubtedly the member of the current cabinet with the strongest political lineage is Brian Lenahan. He also has a first class honours degree from Trinity College, another from Cambridge, lectured in law in Trinity and is a barrister (indeed a senior council). This, I would think, is enough to allow for the chance that the man is not a fool and might have some ability. I suggest that the fact that he was probably immersed in politics from an early age can only add to his CV, not detract from it.
I don't know Brian Lenahan from a hole in the wall, I just looked him up on Google.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

you are still not getting my point

Yes they all have ability but they all happpen to be from political families and overall that is not good for democracy as it places power in the hands of an elete few. Several kings in history had ability is that a reason to uphold monarchy
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If i want I could go down through the literaly hundreds of examples (not exaggerating) of sons/daughters of politicans who got elected who are for want of a better phrase "of dubious intellect".

I suggest that the fact that he was probably immersed in politics from an early age can only add to his CV, not detract from it.
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immersed himself in the influence, the winks, the nods, the nudging in the right direction. And Ok if you want to base your whole argument on one shining uncorruptable example of Brian Lenihan then how could I argue with you. Although I could direct you back to his brother Conor as a pretty effective counter argument .
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

television said:
you are still not getting my point
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I hear what you are saying but I don't hear what you suggest as a fix. Those who are interested in politics get involved in politics and get elected. What else do you expect?

television said:
If i want I could go down through the literaly hundreds of examples (not exaggerating) of sons/daughters of politicans who got elected who are for want of a better phrase "of dubious intellect".
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I can list off politicians who do not do well in office but I can't think of any of them that are stupid. Do remember that it's a very difficult job.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

I did not say they were stupid.

True what you say about a solution. its a difficult one alright.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Libertas are saying that the huge cost to business of EU regulations is a reason to vote NO to the Treaty. Yet the business community (IBEC, ISME) seems to be in favour of a Yes vote. Who is right here ? Is a Yes vote bad for Irish business or not ?
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

redstar said:
Libertas are saying that the huge cost to business of EU regulations is a reason to vote NO to the Treaty. Yet the business community (IBEC, ISME) seems to be in favour of a Yes vote. Who is right here ? Is a Yes vote bad for Irish business or not ?
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This is another utter red-herring from Libertas
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

ajapale said:
Now this is my kind of Europe!

The capital of the Atlantic Zone would be Lisbon.
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According to this map, a swathe incorporating Middlesex, Oxfordshire and Warwickshire (I think) are already on the mainland. Zut alors!!!!
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Why are FG using the same wax foto of Enda, that lost them the election, in their Lisbon Yes posters? Do they secretly want a No vote?:rolleyes:
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

csirl said:
A lot of pro-Yes people are going around saying that we should vote Yes because the EU has been good to Ireland to date.

I see this as a reason to vote No. If the EU, as it currently stands, is good for Ireland, I see no reason to change it.
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That is an over simplification of that yes argument. The pro-yes people point out that at every previous Euro referendum they've been right and the no people were wrong. Since the no camp are using the same euro sceptic arguments now that they've used on every previous occasion the yes camp are inviting the electorate to conclude that the no-camp are wrong again.

Voting no in the hope that the EU will remain static is both unrealistic and ignores the many positive aspects of the reform treaty such as greater democratic accountability to the the European parliament and greater protection against unilaterally imposed corporate tax rates.

csirl said:
I also have issue with all the Yes people scaremongering and giving people the impression that we have to vote Yes or we will be kicked out of the EU. This is not a referendum on Ireland's EU membership and Ireland will still be in the EU even if we vote no.
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No one in the yes camp is arguing that. They are however pointing out the we'll lose the ability to shape events in our own interest as the rest of Europe will not stand still if we vote no.

csirl said:
The world will not stop if we vote no. Plenty of other EU members have rejected things in the past and the world still turns. People like the UK, who have been members as long as us, havent even got the Euro yet.
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Yes the world won't stop but we'll be in a much more difficult environment. A no from France, Germany or the UK can hold things up. But a no from Ireland to the whole programme will marginalise us. Ireland needs to use its veto selectively on narrower issues in partnership with other member countries sharing common interests on whatever the issue is.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Yep, Ireland needs to pick its fights. This isn't one of them. On the issue of previous No campaigns, how about the Maastricht treaty? Remember all the scaremongering about being drafted into a Euro army? :rolleyes: Its been 16 years!
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

There's no getting away from the fact that Lisbon shifts power to the bigger states, centralizes decision making and is in effect a constitutional foundation for a United States of Europe.

If people want that and want to vote for it that's fine. It irks me that the Yes camp won't be honest with the people in relation to this, although I can understand their reluctance. Any Yes people here prepared to agree with my first sentence above?
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

michaelm said:
There's no getting away from the fact that Lisbon shifts power to the bigger states, centralizes decision making and is in effect a constitutional foundation for a United States of Europe.

If people want that and want to vote for it that's fine. It irks me that the Yes camp won't be honest with the people in relation to this, although I can understand their reluctance. Any Yes people here prepared to agree with my first sentence above?
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Sure,I'll be voting Yes because I fully support any changes that drive us towards a United States of Europe or similar, federal arrangement. The bigger states will have more clout - thats democracy though, isn't it ? If the treaty is voted down in Ireland, then it fails to be adopted because 1 out of 27 states says no. Is that democratic ?

How does California or Vermont 'suffer' by being part of the USA ?
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

redstar said:
Sure,I'll be voting Yes because I fully support any changes that drive us towards a United States of Europe or similar, federal arrangement.
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Anyone who shares your views should vote Yes. Aren't you even slightly uncomfortable with how the politicians are mis-selling the Treaty?
redstar said:
The bigger states will have more clout - thats democracy though, isn't it ?
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Yes, if you believe in a one-size-fits-all approach where laws passed will reflect what the big states want (Ireland will be irrelevant with less than 1% of a vote under QMV).
redstar said:
If the treaty is voted down in Ireland, then it fails to be adopted because 1 out of 27 states says no. Is that democratic ?
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This is as per the EU's own rules. Where the lack of democracy come into it is that France and Holland have already rejected essentially the same treaty and that 26 countries are denying their people a say - our politicians would deny us a say if it weren't for our constitution. It is telling that the European Parliament voted down a motion to respect the outcome of the Irish Referendum (Dublin MEP, Frank Ross being one of those voting down the motion - back in the day that would have been treason and would have carried a heavy penalty). Also telling is that Brian Cowen has threatened to expel any conscientious objectors from his party and that he won't commit to one referendum only on this issue.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

michaelm said:
Anyone who shares your views should vote Yes. Aren't you even slightly uncomfortable with how the politicians are mis-selling the Treaty?
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Yes.
Both sides are using emotive and irrelevant points to push their case. I'll research the details for myself and make up my own mind. I ignore what the politicians say.

Yes, if you believe in a one-size-fits-all approach where laws passed will reflect what the big states want (Ireland will be irrelevant with less than 1% of a vote under QMV).
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The states within Europe will still have a lot more power than those within , say, the USA.
National parliaments will be able to review proposed EU legislation and make changes or reject them. Currently, this is not the case. Post-Treaty, national parliaments will have more influence than now.
In Ireland, we will still have referenda to change anything in our constitution.


This is as per the EU's own rules.
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True. Which is why the Lisbon Treaty is necessary to change those rules.

Where the lack of democracy come into it is that France and Holland have already rejected essentially the same treaty and that 26 countries are denying their people a say - our politicians would deny us a say if it weren't for our constitution.
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They rejected it, so it had to be changed. This is the Constitution Mk2. The fact that countries are not putting this to their own people is a matter for them - The people elected their Govts knowing their position on EU integration.

It is telling that the European Parliament voted down a motion to respect the outcome of the Irish Referendum (Dublin MEP, Frank Ross being one of those voting down the motion - back in the day that would have been treason and would have carried a heavy penalty).
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What did the motion actually mean ? If we voted Yes or No what would it mean in practice if the EU Parliament added the words "respected the outcome of the Irish Referendum" to the Corbett Report on the Lisbon Treaty . Its completely meaningless. I'm not surprised MEPs did not approve to add it.

Also telling is that Brian Cowen has threatened to expel any conscientious objectors from his party and that he won't commit to one referendum only on this issue.
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Well, he has to show who's boss, doesn't he. Political muscle-flexing from a new leader.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

michaelm said:
This sums it up for me.
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Okay so that arrogant young isolationist brit tries to make a name for himself with some very cheap shots. I cringe when a brit fascist praises paddies and advises them how to vote.

Of course this is the EU constitution re-packaged but without making the mistake of it being subject to the lottery of multiple referenda. The only remaining random element is the Oirish.

Of course we are not having referenda because we are afraid of the (random) outcomes especially with multiple referenda. That's why we don't have referenda on, for example, the Finance Act.

The fact is there will remain so many protections for regional idiosynchratic positions such as our own on neutrality and tax, that the EU will remain a far way short of the cohesive entity that is the United States.
 
Re: Lisbon yes or no?

Harchibald said:
Okay so that arrogant young isolationist brit tries to make a name for himself with some very cheap shots. I cringe when a brit fascist praises paddies and advises them how to vote.
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Indeed, anyone who opposes Lisbon is either in league with the US military, an ultra right-wing fundamentalist, a goose stepping fascist, an extreme left-wing nutbar, an isolationist, confused, anti-European . . have I missed any?

Is it not possible that they've actually read the treaty and are concerned that too much power and decision making is being centralised and that this is a bad deal for Ireland? The spokesmen for the Yes campaigns don't deal with the specifics of the treaty, they play the man not the ball, so to speak.
 
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